View Full Version : Clifford Stone - EYES ONLY new book
Luminari
12-12-2011, 09:08 PM
80
https://www.createspace.com/3727804
Just released:
Clifford Stone's EYES ONLY book is now shipping! A 243 paged book with an incredible amount of information. A first hand account of Crash Retrieval operations!
I was honored to be involved in the making of this book, doing the editing and proofreading. Show your support for this hero of our time.
http://www.langkawi.dk/smileys/b336.gif
Luminari
12-12-2011, 09:10 PM
Clifford Stone's Biography was released today on Create Space and Amazon.com
Eyes Only: The Clifford Stone Story
Foreword by Robert Salas
Sgt. Clifford Stone has a convincing claim of being on the inside of military operations involving the recovery of UFO craft and EBEs. He was an exemplary NCO and served his country in Vietnam. He has courageously spoken out publicly. He and his testimony deserve our attention and respect.
Robert Salas
Ojai, CA 2011
Disclosure Project Witness - National Press Club, May 9th 2001
To keep the greatest secret in the world that we are “not alone” is a heavy burden for many military men who have sworn security oaths. The combined courage of these patriotic men and their combined interviews could prove UFOS are real in any court of law. But now I realize that someday this book will historically become part of a vast archive of evidence. Sgt. Clifford Stone is one of brave ones and he has paid a heavy personal price. I was privileged to meet him in 1997, to become part of this book and to present the following report. Perhaps, the time has come “to tell the truth”!
Paola Leopizzi Harris
Investigative journalist/UFO researcher
Author: Exopolitics-Stargate to a New Reality
and Connecting the Dots: Making Sense of the UFO reality
www.paolaharris.com
Sgt. Clifford Stone is one of the most important truth tellers of our time. This book is a collector’s treasure of his unique personal experiences in the military with real extraterrestrial beings. I recognize his truth and honor him for having the courage to tell it. Clifford carries a time sensitive and world changing message vital to our very survival, that “they are not hostile.” His story educates and opens doors to a new awareness about what’s really going on behind veils of secrecy which influences all our lives. He leads us into a whole new way of thinking and behaving. Clifford Stone raises our consciousness, touches my heart, and brings me to tears with his fascinating true story.
Carol Rosin
Founder, Institute for Security and Cooperation in Outer Space
spacetreaty@gmail.com
http://www.peaceinspace.com
murmur
12-12-2011, 10:06 PM
Has Clifford been invited to join us here?
SolFlickan
12-12-2011, 10:11 PM
Has Clifford been invited to join us here?
If he does join, I wish you the very best of luck if you ask him questions in the hope of getting real answers. I followed him on another forum a while back and never saw him offer anything of substance. Never a straight answer. Perhaps he was saving it all for his book.
murmur
12-12-2011, 10:25 PM
Yes....I'm not a fan of Mr. Stone myself....but I would not want to discourage or stand in the way of efforts to bring him in.
I'd love the opportunity to learn from Mr Stone's answers to respectful questions
SolFlickan
12-12-2011, 10:33 PM
I'd love the opportunity to learn from Mr Stone's answers to respectful questions
Me too.
SolFlickan
12-12-2011, 10:43 PM
Don't hold your breath.
If I was in the habit of holding my breath, I would be dead and buried by now. I am still waiting for him to answer the respectful questions he got on the other forum.
murmur
12-12-2011, 10:50 PM
spoiler tags would be helpful here....hint hint admins
SolFlickan
12-12-2011, 10:57 PM
spoiler tags would be helpful here....hint hint admins
You want the truth to be hidden? Why?
Chris
12-12-2011, 11:13 PM
Has Clifford been invited to join us here?
We are speaking with several people but we don't want to make any promises.
What forum has Stone appeared on before?
SolFlickan
12-12-2011, 11:18 PM
We are speaking with several people but we don't want to make any promises.
What forum has Stone appeared on before?
I saw him at ATS two (or perhaps three) years ago.
murmur
12-12-2011, 11:55 PM
You want the truth to be hidden? Why?
Spoiler tags are just a tool that prevents non-members from seeing what is written between the tags.
It's useful in some circumstances
Luminari
12-13-2011, 12:23 AM
The amazon doesn't appear to be up yet. Yes the book contains explosive info Cliff has not gone into before in detail. This is not UFOs Are Real part 2. This is a whole new book that delves into Cliff's childhood experiences with ET/Ultraterrestrials, Greys in Vietnam, the Pentagon, at crash retrievals etc.
murmur
12-13-2011, 12:31 AM
Does he go into depth about his experience working at the Roswell Musuem?
Luminari
12-14-2011, 07:40 PM
Does he go into depth about his experience working at the Roswell Musuem?
People like you are why Clifford will not join the forum.
Clifford never worked at the Roswell Museum. He works for Job Corps helping disadvantaged youths.
I'm not a big fan of Cliff Stone. He has always impressed me as a maudlin, deluded old man manipulated by Mark Allin for webpage hits.
SolFlickan
12-14-2011, 08:30 PM
People like you are why Clifford will not join the forum.
That is pure BS. The reason Clifford will not join the forum is that he doesn't like questions.
If he never worked at the Roswell Museum, if that is true and he has nothing to hide, the easiest thing in the world would be to just sign up and tell it like it is.
Dragonfire
12-14-2011, 08:57 PM
Although this is a new forum, many of the members should recall what happened on another forum when other note worthy people joined. They were pretty much treated with disrespect. Everyone wants to ask questions. But they should be asked in a polite way. When someone didn't get the response they wanted, name calling became the rage and the person just left and no one got any answers.
If someone of slight fame or more does decide to join up and answer questions, I would hope the members here would be more courteous.
rdunk
12-14-2011, 09:06 PM
Well, I don't know Cliff Stone, and certainly I am nor persuaded by comments here so far! So, I am ordering the book, and will see for myself, what his story is, and where I think he is coming from. There are a lot of people that do have real stories of personal experience(s) to tell, despite there always being a cadre of naysayers standing ready to.......... "naysay"!
Hopefully, if his book does provide a good and sound basis of personal experience, may we can have him here for serious discussion, with those really interested is hearing what he has to say.
Chris
12-14-2011, 09:12 PM
Well, I don't know Cliff Stone, and certainly I am nor persuaded by comments here so far! So, I am ordering the book, and will see for myself, what his story is, and where I think he is coming from. There are a lot of people that do have real stories of personal experience(s) to tell, despite there always being a cadre of naysayers standing ready to.......... "naysay"!
Hopefully, if his book does provide a good and sound basis of personal experience, may we can have him here for serious discussion, with those really interested is hearing what he has to say.
Good idea, rdunk!
Too many people allow others to do their critical thinking for them, and consequently haven't a clue what they are talking about.
Just came across this golden oldie from ATS a few years ago! Very funny!
reply posted on 9-6-2008 @ 10:15 AM by TallWhites
Mr. Stone, is it true that Bigfoot (or Sasquatch) thats often seen by people isnt a lost species of apes, but rather aliens from another planet that belong in the 57 species category???
reply posted on 9-6-2008 @ 12:50 PM by ofhumandescent
[edit on 9-6-2008 by ofhumandescent]
reply posted on 9-6-2008 @ 12:53 PM by ofhumandescent
Originally posted by ofhumandescent
I do not believe that any alien race would hide the knowledge of their existence "for humanitarian" reasons. It has been my experience at least with my fellow humans (and I suspect this will carry over to other intelligent life forms) that if someone has "good intentions" towards us, they would be more forthright, above board, honest and out in the open. It is also been my experience that if someone has "bad intentions" or (plan to muck you over) that they are secretive, sneaky and manipulative. People being abducted against their will, experiments performed, tagging (like cattle) it all points to a very covert operation that has not been in our specie’s best interest. We have been invaded, our DNA is (again) being messed with and many people can't or won't wake up and realize that mankind has been under a covert attack. By the time the majority of people realize what has been going on it will be too late. By intertwining our DNA with theirs they have blended us and them together and in doing so, one can no longer pick up a gun and go to war against their own “children”. The “hybrids” will be smarter, stronger and better thus enabling them to be the ruling elite and the rest of us that “were not chosen” (the real humans) will be the slave labor.
"In conflict, straightforward actions generally lead to engagement, surprising actions generally lead to victory." Art of War by sun Tzu
reply posted on 9-6-2008 @ 01:13 PM by boycott1
Originally posted by TallWhites
Mr. Stone, is it true that Bigfoot (or Sasquatch) thats often seen by people isnt a lost species of apes, but rather aliens from another planet that belong in the 57 species category???
And you said that with a straight face? I just notced this post by a resident genius at OM:
"I am not an investigator. I do not have the connections nor the resources to even consider such a thing, which is why I get my info from places like OM. If OM can please get in touch with Sgt. Stone and see if we at OM can help him in any way, then it would be a great service to OM, Sgt Stone and disclosure in general. Please don't let ATS screw this up like they did Serpo!!"
While I was unaware that ATS 'screwed up' Serpo, I'll take your word for it. But certainly, in regards to Clifford Stone, I sense a well deserved 'bang, bang out go the lights' moment in the offing. Bill?
reply posted on 9-6-2008 @ 01:27 PM by maudeeb
reply to post by ofhumandescent
"I do not believe that any alien race would hide the knowledge of their existence "for humanitarian" reasons. It has been my experience at least with my fellow humans (and I suspect this will carry over to other intelligent life forms) that if someone has "good intentions" towards us, they would be more forthright, above board, honest and out in the open."
Obviously your fellow humans are not involved in the political sphere
Face it - those that controll our daily lives , or the infrastructures most of us live with and by do not act like this themselves. It's a mess here. We make the best of it, but people as a whole do not respond well to change or truths outside their accepted awareness. Different cultures, different regions will have completely different reactions to the "unknown" based on thousands of years of programming. Historically, our track record hasn't been good in this area.
"People being abducted against their will, experiments performed, tagging (like cattle) it all points to a very covert operation that has not been in our specie’s best interest."
the term "covert operation that has not been in our specie’s best interest" perfectly describes what most of the world's societies have been up to regarding their own people on a spiritual level - we have no idea what these activities actually mean and if they are all in fact programs of ET origin.
Mr. Stone's stated that two of the known contacted races could be described as Malevolent - we shouldn't lump all possible ET actions and motives into the same group. There's bound to be a few "bad apples" out there (sure are plenty down here ;-) ) but the actions of a few do not define the whole. We're talking 57 possible races here - that's like saying most of the earth's nations were responsible for what was done by scientists in nazi germany.
reply posted on 9-6-2008 @ 02:03 PM by Springer
reply to post by boycott1
Have no fear... Sgt. Stone is way too smart and honest to deal with the sockpuppets at that little forum. I talk to him just about every week and he's enjoying his interaction with our members.
Springer...
reply posted on 9-6-2008 @ 02:20 PM by boycott1
Originally posted by Springer
reply to post by boycott1
Have no fear... Sgt. Stone is way too smart and honest to deal with the sockpuppets at that little forum. I talk to him just about every week and he's enjoying his interaction with our members.
Springer...
Mark- you know I love you but gimmee a break for crissakes. This guy, Stone, is no more credible than Rick Doty or Bill Moore- his 'god bless you' schtick notwithstanding. If he actually has documentary evidence then let him post it. He's saying that his revelations are the most important in all of human history. Well- that would imply that that they would surpass the putative safety of an 80 year old man. As Walter Mondale so famously said, "Where's the beef?" You say that he's 'smart and honest.' Let's see some proof of that assertion. Otherwise bang the lights.
Kim
SolFlickan
12-14-2011, 09:25 PM
Good idea, rdunk!
Too many people allow others to do their critical thinking for them, and consequently haven't a clue what they are talking about.
And which people may that be..?
Curious minds wants to know.
murmur
12-14-2011, 09:33 PM
People like you are why Clifford will not join the forum.
Clifford never worked at the Roswell Museum. He works for Job Corps helping disadvantaged youths.
http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v48/ss011101.htm
When we met Stone a few years ago, he was working as a security guard in a shopping mall in Roswell, N.M.
My mistake
Chris
12-14-2011, 10:06 PM
And which people may that be..?
Curious minds wants to know.
They can be found by looking at the "me too" type of statements where they have not made any indication of doing even a modicum of research yet have a firm and fast opinion. It's a "gang" mentality approach.
From the Murnut's Jim Moseley link...2001
88STONED AGAIN!
Former Army Sergeant Clifford Stone has become one of the most vocal and sensational supporters of former M.D. Steven Greer, according to recent material on the Net. When we met Stone a few years ago, he was working as a security guard in a shopping mall in Roswell, N.M. We had a pleasant, lengthy interview with him, and he told us of several military ufological angles he was researching regarding UFO secrecy. However, he definitely did not mention any personal experiences with aliens, or anything of the sort!
Apparently the wild-eyed atmosphere of Roswell has finally gotten to the good man, because now he has remembered several personal experiences from years earlier, when he was on active duty around the age of 19. About 1969 (he's not sure of the year), Stone was allegedly on duty in Indian Town Gap, Pennsylvania, when he was called upon to take radiation level readings from what appeared to be a heel-shaped crashed spacecraft. There were four dead aliens inside it, according to Stone's story.
On a different occasion, Stone and another soldier helped a live alien to escape from the military, as they felt sorry for the creature. Stone does not give any details at all about this incident, nor about why he was not courtmartialed if the story is true!
We are told that the first-mentioned incident involved details very much indeed like those given by Roswell witness Frank Kaufmann. This, by Saucer Logic, is confirmation, as it shows that almost identical spacecraft have crashed in at least two widely separated parts of the country! Wheee!
SolFlickan
12-14-2011, 10:49 PM
They can be found by looking at the "me too" type of statements where they have not made any indication of doing even a modicum of research yet have a firm and fast opinion. It's a "gang" mentality approach.
I haven't seen any "me too" statements here. Or do comments seem like "me too" statements to you when people who are somewhat critical of Clifford Stone happens to post in the same thread? While those who believe Mr. Stones claims and stories are simply making quite ordinary statements when they post in the same thread? Then it is not a "gang" mentality?
The word "hypocricy" comes to mind, for some strange reason.
Chris
12-14-2011, 10:56 PM
I haven't seen any "me too" statements here. Or do comments seem like "me too" statements to you when people who are somewhat critical of Clifford Stone happens to post in the same thread? While those who believe Mr. Stones claims and stories are simply making quite ordinary statements when they post in the same thread? Then it is not a "gang" mentality?
The word "hypocricy" comes to mind, for some strange reason.
Now I see what you were getting at!
No, I was not referring to you or anybody else posting in this thread. I was talking about people in general who will not do their own work and I was encouraging 'rdunk' to make the purchase and decide for himself.
Personally, I have several problems with Stone's testimony.
SolFlickan
12-14-2011, 11:13 PM
Now I see what you were getting at!
No, I was not referring to you or anybody else posting in this thread. I was talking about people in general who will not do their own work and I was encouraging 'rdunk' to make the purchase and decide for himself.
Personally, I have several problems with Stone's testimony.
Ok, I understand. All is good, then.
I wouldn't encourage anyone to buy the book, though. There is a lot of info online about Mr. Stone and his claims... Should be enough around to give people an idea whether this man is telling the truth or just hoaxing gullible people. And since I think he is just hoaxing, it bothers me that he makes money on selling books full of lies.
Luminari
12-15-2011, 12:44 AM
You are entitled to believe whatever you like based on your 'opinions' just remember opinions don't mean squat, experience is everything. Clifford lived his experience. Slander is still slander. If you want to cut down good people, that's your karma- just remember what goes around comes around.
SolFlickan
12-15-2011, 01:08 AM
Oh, I agree, Luminari. What goes around, comes around. That is true for hoaxers and liars too, you know.
And slander? Don't make me laugh. Go ahead, sue me for having an opinion about Clifford Stone. Suing people for all kinds of crap is like THE hobby for people in the US, isn't it? Please, please, please, sue me, drag me to court! We can go to court, right? Oh, I hope so! I would just love to hear Mr. Stone tell the truth. The whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Luminari
12-15-2011, 01:16 AM
if that is true and he has nothing to hide, the easiest thing in the world would be to just sign up and tell it like it is.
Gee that's some ego you have there- do you stroke it often? Why would Clifford need to answer to you or any of the other nobodies pushing this agenda..
Anyone have any respect for a vietnam vet here and a disclosure warrior to boot?
Yes, he also worked as a security guard at the Roswell mall- that's common knowledge- how is it relevant? its not, simple.
I forgot how much fun forums were.
Luminari
12-15-2011, 01:24 AM
I've spelled this out for morons in the past but won't hesitate to do it again;
The only hoax people should be concerned with is the one being perpetuated by the silence group on the people of the world.
That's the REAL hoax, don't ever forget it!
SolFlickan
12-15-2011, 01:28 AM
Gee that's some ego you have there- do you stroke it often? Why would Clifford need to answer to you or any of the other nobodies pushing this agenda..
Anyone have any respect for a vietnam vet here and a disclosure warrior to boot?
Yes, he also worked as a security guard at the Roswell mall- that's common knowledge- how is it relevant? its not, simple.
I forgot how much fun forums were.
I don't care if he was a Vietnam vet. I don't care that he was a security guard. The man could have worked as a circus clown for a living, so what. (It would only matter if he lied about it. Cause you know, once a liar...)
What I actually DO care about, is that Mr. Stone does not answer highly relevant questions directed to him about his claims, and that he apparantly can not join this forum because there are people here who don't take his words as gospel no matter what. If he has nothing to hide, if he is not lying about all the strange things he claim to have experienced, there would be absolutely no reason for him to stay away from a place where he could get the truth out, right? That IS what he wants with his book, right?
And about that slander thing. You're doing a nice job yourself there, man, hahaha.
SolFlickan
12-15-2011, 01:29 AM
I've spelled this out for morons in the past but won't hesitate to do it again;
The only hoax people should be concerned with is the one being perpetuated by the silence group on the people of the world.
That's the REAL hoax, don't ever forget it!
There, there, calm down. Remember that slander thing.
SolFlickan
12-15-2011, 01:32 AM
Got to go to bed. I'll be back tomorrow for some more slander. Keep up the good work!
Dragonfire
12-15-2011, 01:41 AM
Everyone has an opinion and we all don't agree with each and everyone's opinion. But it is your own. Debates are good, no throwing objects, spitting, or gunfire.
So play nice.
Luminari
12-15-2011, 02:13 AM
Seeing as there is nothing constructive happening here. *I'm going to end my interaction on this topic*
It's not my place to be holding back the ocean of skepticism or fighting a war for Cliff. I am generally a friendly and kind person- but with zero interest in socializing with debunkers or uninformed provocateurs. We can find orchestrated hoax allegations in every major UFO or Contact case- it still doesn't change the fact that the phenomena is real and ongoing.
My function here was to inform people of the release of the book. That being done- you are free to do what you wish with that information.
http://www.langkawi.dk/smileys/m8.gif
murmur
12-15-2011, 04:31 AM
Believed Stone at one time....or I wanted to believe.
I wanted to believe Greer;
I wanted to believe the Drones were real.
I wanted to believe Source "A"
I wanted to believe Serpo
I want to believe all the stories.
But at the end of the day, I've been disappointed.
I'm tired of the stories and I'm just looking for honesty.
I find very little honesty in most of ufology.
Want I do find is a lot of grandstanding and unsubstantiated stories.
Frequently I observe much covering of butts.
I'd agree that there seems to be some type of phenomena that defies a reasonable explanation.
But I also believe that it is fair to question those that offer an explanation based on some type of insider knowledge.
Unfortunately, it's been my personal experience that the only cover up that exists (that I've found) is most of ufology looking at itself in the mirror.
Ufology refuses to call out it's own for truth, because it does not want to give itself a black eye.
Unfortunately....again....it reduces itself to relative obscurity.
It cannot demand truth from others as it rationalizes lies from within.
That's not true of everyone in ufology, but it hurts itself when good folks look the other way in the face of frauds, hoaxers and liars.
For the good of serious research and a legitimate study of this phenomena, it's time for ufology to police their own.
I have serious problems regarding Stone's credibility.
But I'd certainly welcome someone willing to take a stand for truth...even if it's not the truth they want to believe
The last time I wanted to believe was Serpo. I no longer want to believe. I want to be convinced.
That has not yet happened.
murmur
12-15-2011, 04:51 AM
That's well stated Doc.
I'm adopting that...I want to be convinced as well
Thank you. The idea came to me in the last few days. You are welcome to it.
I've been observing for quite some time now, disappointed often but always remain with an open mind.
I'm not very trusting of anyone or anything anymore, but I still read and listen to what gets put out there.
I just don't understand why people fabricate some of their stories, I don't believe it is IC involvement, I believe in many of the cases it is people looking for attention and nothing more :rolleyes:
BE "noot" says it best..... "consider everything / believe nothing" :D
Oh yah and don't forget.............. "smoke em if ya got em"
Gotta love BE :D
Thanks Mom.
I'd add just this: Carl Sagan, in a lucid moment (i.e. when he wasn't engaging in gratuitous and arrogant debunkery) made a critical point- "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." And when that advice is applied to the testimony of story tellers as diverse as Cliff Stone and Fore it should be acknowledged that they have fallen short of the Sagan Principle. I don't understand the motivation behind unsubstantiated tales and that's not my interest. The Murnut has more expertise in that area. But I do know such tall tales do not serve the interests of truth and knowledge but rather add nothing but a high tenor of confusion to our investigation of the high strange.
Garuda
12-15-2011, 12:53 PM
You do know that "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" is a fallacy, right?
That it goes against the very basic principles of scientific research, right?
If would I claim that I made millions overnight, that's an extraordinary claim.
Yet all that is needed to prove it, is a bank statement. Nothing extraordinary about that evidence.
When the LHC team says they have found particles that appear to go faster than light, that's an extraordinary claim.
Yet the verification / falsification of it will be done by standard accepted scientific methodologies.
It would be unscientific to require different methodologies, just because something appears extraordinary.
'Extraordinary claims' cannot be used as an objective criterium. There are no set rules to determine what is extraordinary.
The same applies to 'extraordinary evidence'.
Requiring 'extraordinary evidence' for some facts while requiring ordinary evidence for others, would amount to double standards, that on top of that are based on subjective considerations. It must be abundantly clear that there can be no place for that in scientific research.
You're confusing evidence with method.
Garuda
12-15-2011, 01:49 PM
You're confusing evidence with method.
No, I'm not...
It's a fallacy. Plain and simple.
The aim of Scientific Method is the construction of theory that best explains any given set of observations at any given time. It is the observations themselves that require evidence as the necessary point of departure towards that aim. A claim of extraordinary observation does, indeed, require extraordinary evidence. See the difference?
Garuda
12-15-2011, 01:59 PM
Toon, you can make a little dance, pull faces, stand on your head, do a little twirl, indulge in sophistries as much as you like, but it won't change a thing: 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence' is a fallacy.
If you can't understand that, that's your problem, not mine.
The aim of Scientific Method is the construction of theory that best explains any given set of observations at any given time. It is the observations themselves that require evidence as the necessary point of departure towards that aim. A claim of extraordinary observation does, indeed, require extraordinary evidence. See the difference?
Makes perfect sense to even me :D
Garuda, you stated earlier that you have forsworn belief for the requirement of being convinced. 'Convinced' by what if not by evidence?
Garuda
12-15-2011, 02:09 PM
Well, then, please provide an objective, scientifically accepted definition of the following
- ordinary claim
- ordinary observation
- extraordinary claim
- extraordinary observation
- ordinary evidence
- extraordinary evidence
Once you've done that, please prove why
- ordinary claims would require ordinary evidence
- extraordinary claims would require extraordinary evidence
- exactly why different standards should be applied and how
- claims of extraordinary observation would require extraordinary evidence
Good luck with that!
Garuda
12-15-2011, 02:09 PM
Garuda, you stated earlier that you have forsworn belief for the requirement of being convinced. 'Convinced' by what if not by evidence?
I have?
There is confusion between "evidence" and "proof". Evidence establishes proof. A more unusual claim would require proportional evidence to establish acceptable proof to most observers but proof is proof. If there is no provable opposing or negating hypothesis, ordinary proof is what you have and you either accept it and move forward or reject it and go around it.
Garuda
12-15-2011, 02:14 PM
The point is "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" is a fallacy.
Go ahead, write a peer-reviewed article that proves differently.
Until then, don't waste my time.
murmur
12-15-2011, 02:18 PM
Garuda, you stated earlier that you have forsworn belief for the requirement of being convinced. 'Convinced' by what if not by evidence?
That was Doc
Well, then, please provide an objective, scientifically accepted definition of the following
- ordinary claim
- ordinary observation
- extraordinary claim
- extraordinary observation
- ordinary evidence
- extraordinary evidence
Once you've done that, please prove why
- ordinary claims would require ordinary evidence
- extraordinary claims would require extraordinary evidence
- exactly why different standards should be applied and how
- claims of extraordinary observation would require extraordinary evidence
Good luck with that!it can be illustrated by the difference between these two claims:
1. The sky is blue.
2. There was an alien in my bedroom last night.
Proof to me, is being shown something that I can see with my own eyes......... which I can then make the call as to whether I will believe it is a truth or not. The only one I can truly trust is myself.
I will no longer take anothers word for something, I have been lied to, too many times.
I have experienced a few "strange things" while having sleep paralysis but who really knows if it was real or just my mind playing tricks on me. These experiences are not proof of anything. Enough to make you wonder and research the phenomenon........ which is nothing more than something observable.
I agree (with reservations, of course.) But I think we can all concur with the assertion that 90% of so-called Ufer 'experts' are snake oil salesmen and bullshitters. Now I can't be certain that Cliff inhabits that smarmy company but he certainly appears to- at least to my mind. And why? Extraordinary claims totally lacking in evidence.
I agree (with reservations, of course.) But I think we can all concur with the assertion that 90% of so-called Ufer 'experts' are snake oil salesmen and bullshitters. Now I can't be certain that Cliff inhabits that smarmy company but he certainly appears to- at least to my mind. And why? Extraordinary claims totally lacking in evidence.
Hahahahahaha........ the day you agree with me, without reservation, is the day I will go out and buy a lottery ticket ;)
The part I disagreed with was your contention that proof must consist of personal observation. That's all. And I don't think you really believe that either.
The part I disagreed with was your contention that proof must consist of personal observation. That's all. And I don't think you really believe that either.
Well I do kind of believe that now, because if I don't personally observe something, then I have to take the word of someone else.
However, I suppose you are correct as usual, an example of something that I believe may have really happened, that I didn't personally observe, is the Arizona Lights. There were so many witnesses to that, with such varied credibilities, that it is highly probable to me that there is truth to the event. But it wasn't the story of one or two men. It was an entire City.
Yeah. What I meant was that limiting knowledge to personal observation turns us into flat-earthers when elevated to principle. But I know what you're saying. There are equal measures of intellectual danger in both abject skepticism and credulity.
Well.......... this saying:
"stupid is less a condition than a choice Arthur Afterburn"
is not so much a choice of mine anymore :(
Maybe not so much that I'm stupid as perhaps slow to catch the drift nowadays.
This conversation supports my belief that we would do a service to the whole field of subjects we enjoy if we were to do a thorough exploration of what constitutes proof, what is acceptable evidence, what is honest skepticism etc. It is needed, has not ever been done on a forum that I know of and we have the sort of people right here who could do it well. I'm sure that if the results were useful we could get the word out there to a wider range of people, too.
I personally think that unless the UFO community establishes an organization that exists for the sole purpose of administering polygraph tests and also various psychological assessements to those who are making extraordinary claims where they are asking us to just take their word for it that their story is true or accept that their evidential information is authentic, we will continue to be taken in by ‘messengers of deception’ who are either working for covert agencies that are spreading disinformation to perpetuate their own hidden adgenda’s --- or are those who are merely seeking public attention, fame and profit.
The results of those tests would not necessarily be the final word as to the veracity of someone’s extraordinary claims, but at least we will have that information available at our finger tips to be able to make our own determinations if their claims are true or if they are fabrications.
Can the results of a polygraph be believed?
Garuda
12-15-2011, 04:19 PM
I personally think that unless the UFO community establishes an organization that exists for the sole purpose of administering polygraph tests and also various psychological assessements to those who are making extraordinary claims where they are asking us to just take their word for it that their story is true or accept that their evidential information is authentic, we will continue to be taken in by ‘messengers of deception’ who are either working for covert agencies that are spreading disinformation to perpetuate their own hidden adgenda’s --- or are those who are merely seeking public attention, fame and profit.
The results of those tests would not necessarily be the final word as to the veracity of someone’s extraordinary claims, but at least we will have that information available at our finger tips to be able to make our own determinations if their claims are true or if they are fabrications.
Polygraphs won't help you find the truth, only what people believe to be true.
The following examples all include cases where people could pass a polygraph test if they were asked whether they were abducted, even if they're not:
Repression of Abuse
Prewaking and presleeping states
The Will to Believe
Hallucinations
Fantasy-prone personalities
Influence of Hypnosis
Psychosis
Multiple personality disorder
Psychogenic Fugue State
Temporal Lobe Dysfunction
The list is only meant to give examples, and is not exhaustive.
Polygraphs won't help you find the truth, only what people believe to be true.
The following examples all include cases where people could pass a polygraph test if they were asked whether they were abducted, even if they're not:
Repression of Abuse
Prewaking and presleeping states
The Will to Believe
Hallucinations
Fantasy-prone personalities
Influence of Hypnosis
Psychosis
Multiple personality disorder
Psychogenic Fugue State
Temporal Lobe Dysfunction
The list is only meant to give examples, and is not exhaustive.
That is kind of what I meant, you said it much better. :D
That's why Psychological assessments by clinical psychologists would be included in such evaluations.
That's why Psychological assessments by clinical psychologists would be included in such evaluations.
The will to believe something, does not mean a psychological problem exists. I am not a religious person, I do not think those that believe in a god have mental problems. They just need something in their lives to give purpose.
Garuda
12-15-2011, 04:37 PM
That's why Psychological assessments by clinical psychologists would be included in such evaluations.
I fail to see how that would help.
If subject A says he was abducted by aliens and in reality it was a case of sleep paralysis, e.g., or a case of temporal lobe dysfunction, what would the psychologist do to ascertain what the truth is, in the setup of a polygraph test?
[Edit to add: in Europe psychologists wouldn't even be allowed to make the diagnosis of sleep paralysis or temporal lobe dysfunction. I don't know what the situation is like in the US].
Pam,
Certainly, the philosophical, religious and world-view paradigm that the client is operating from would be something that any psychologist would take into consideration in their interpretation of the data generated from those assessments to be able to render any conclusions about his/her mental health status. Such factors as mentioned above are always included in such evaluations.
I think we already have a decent system. It's a matter of peer review- we being the peers. Isn't that why we're here?
The principal use of an intitial psychological evaluation would be to rule out some things. Later, an evaluation might be used to confirm or refute an alternative hypothesis about how or why a person perceives or mis-perceives things. There are also neuro-psychologists who do extremely intensive evaluations that would come close to ruling out many alternative hypotheses for "seeing things".
Garuda
12-15-2011, 04:44 PM
Pam,
Certainly, the philosophical, religious and world-view paradigm that the client is operating from would be something that any psychologist would take into consideration in their interpretation of the data generated from those assessments to be able to render any conclusions about his/her mental health status. Such factors as mentioned above are always included in such evaluations.
I hear what you're saying but that's not the point, is it?
Subject A passes the polygraph test, and the psychologist says that it may be because of the person's belief system.
You're back at square one.
At the same time, many abductees suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and might get nervous when doing the test and fail it.
I'm not saying polygraphs can't be useful. But there are a lot of cases where they're not.
I fail to see how that would help.
If subject A says he was abducted by aliens and in reality it was a case of sleep paralysis, e.g., or a case of temporal lobe dysfunction, what would the psychologist do to ascertain what the truth is, in the setup of a polygraph test?
[Edit to add: in Europe psychologists wouldn't even be allowed to make the diagnosis of sleep paralysis or temporal lobe dysfunction. I don't know what the situation is like in the US].
That would be something that a psychologist would have to answer. I do know that Dr. John Mack administered polygraph tests to a good many of his clients who claimed to be abductee's or contactee's, so I'm sure he did that because he thought the results of such assessments would be useful to him in some way.
I hear what you're saying but that's not the point, is it?
Subject A passes the polygraph test, and the psychologist says that it may be because of the person's belief system.
You're back at square one.
At the same time, many abductees suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and might get nervous when doing the test and fail it.
I'm not saying polygraphs can't be useful. But there are a lot of cases where they're not.
I agree with everything that you are saying here but actually, I was mainly addressing cases like Clifford Stone and his claims....
I see lie detectors as voodoo science. For me that would be a non starter. The only approach to truth available to us is critical thinking. And while that is imperfect at least it's fun. Plus it keeps us off the street corners.
Garuda
12-15-2011, 04:51 PM
That would be something that a psychologist would have to answer. I do know that Dr. John Mack administered polygraph tests to a good many of his clients who claimed to be abductee's or contactee's, so I'm sure he did that because he thought the results of such assessments would be useful to him in some way.
Reference please: I haven't heard of Mack "administering polypgraph tests to a good many of his clients".
Mack and I had a number of common friends and I never heard anybody mention anything like this.
I don't remember reading it in his books or papers either.
Edit to add: and a psychiatrist who puts his clients on a polygraph test? Is that even professionally allowed?
Reference please: I haven't heard of Mack "administering polypgraph tests to a good many of his clients".
Mack and I had a number of common friends and I never heard anybody mention anything like this.
I don't remember reading it in his books or papers either.
I saw that this morning on the net when I googled if Clifford Stone has ever undergone a polygraph test. But I'm also basing it from memory from reading one of his books from way back when where I defnitely read that he did administer those tests to those abductee's that he was writing about. Maybe not all of them but it seemed like he did for more than a few.
I will google that up again and post the link that I saw that information about Mack and polygraph tests.
John E. Mack
www.alienscientist.com/harvardpsych.html
John E. Mack studied UFO Abductee cases and administered lie detector tests and rigorous psychological analysis to determine... "They weren't lying"...
http://www.alienscientist.com/harvardpsych.htm
Garuda
12-15-2011, 05:06 PM
John E. Mack
www.alienscientist.com/harvardpsych.html
John E. Mack studied UFO Abductee cases and administered lie detector tests and rigorous psychological analysis to determine... "They weren't lying"...
http://www.alienscientist.com/harvardpsych.htm
OK, thanks.
I'll double-check with 'alien scientist' where he got that from.
I'm not convinced it's accurate.
In regards to Clifford Stone, I really would like him to take a polygraph test concerning his claims about his own personal involvement in the military in "crash retrieval operations of extraterrestrial vehicles".
OK, thanks.
I'll double-check with 'alien scientist' where he got that from.
I'm not convinced it's accurate.
Well you would know...
Like I said, i was just going by memory about Mack saying that he administered those tests to abductee's in regards to one of his books that I read. I'm willing to admit that my recall on that may not be correct. But I have seen other information over the years on the internet by various people who talked about Mack and his findings and so on and some of them would mention him giving people polygraph tests... but if you are saying that that information is incorrect then I will accept that it is because you are a specialist in this field.
newyorklily
12-15-2011, 05:35 PM
One would also have to take into consideration the cost of the tests (and who would pay for them).
In NYC, hypnosis, by a CHt or PhD costs around $150 per session. Most require at least 3 sessions.
A polygraph test, by someone who is licensed to administer it, costs around $300 and up (I don't know if there is an extra charge for the reading/analysis).
Tests for sleep disorders (such as sleep paralysis and sleep apnea) are performed in a hospital overnight. The cost is probably high but some insurances will pay for at least part.
I think if you agree to buy at least 40 of the guy's books he'll probably pay for the lie detector test himself. But the results will have to remain TOP SECRET ULTRA EYES ONLY RESTRICTED. Only Sauce A will have access.
Not to belabor the point, but in cases like Cliff Stone, (which is a high profile case) who is making claims that he was actively involved in UFO crash retrievals all over the world, that so many Ufologists have spoken about a covert dept. in our military being tasked specifically to do that…. and here we have one man, Clifford Stone, coming forward that he was one of those in the military who participated in such missions, if we were to find out that what he is saying about that is absolutely true, can you imagine what a revelation that would be including its implications?
But as it now, we only have his word on it and nothing more. But if he were to take a polygraph test on that where he passed each test that was administered to him, at least we would be able to take those results and consider that what he’s been saying about that has been true all along.
Garuda
12-15-2011, 06:55 PM
Just checked with John Carpenter who also had never heard any claims that Dr. Mack would have had polygraph tests administered to his clients; and in his opinion it is highly unlikely.
He shares my doubts about the usefulness of polygraph tests, as many experiencers are not even sure as to what they can believe about their own experiences.
But as it now, we only have his word on it and nothing more. Does that apply to Fore and his [contact] claims?
But if he were to take a polygraph test on that where he passed each test that was administered to him, at least we would be able to take those results and consider that what he’s been saying about that has been true all along.
ADMINISTRATOR'S NOTE: Toon, you've been warned before to drop the name calling.
Repeat offenses WILL result in having your account suspended or revoked.
Just checked with John Carpenter who also had never heard any claims that Dr. Mack would have had polygraph tests administered to his clients; and in his opinion it is highly unlikely.
He shares my doubts about the usefulness of polygraph tests, as many experiencers are not even sure as to what they can believe about their own experiences.
Thanks for checking on that Garuda. Then most likely he never said anything in his books that he administered them himself though I do think that Mack did mention some experiencers he worked with who would have their own polygraph test taken where Mack would mention the results of those tests. But as for him administering those tests himself or even suggesting that the experiencer take a lie detector test administered by someone else, I accept that what you are saying is true.
But once again, I'm looking more at cases like Clifford Stone in regards to UFO crash retrieval. In that case, we are not talking about an abduction experience but specifically about job duties. In cases like that, I would think a polygraph test and its results would be useful in terms of qualifying if their statements on that are true or not.
SolFlickan
12-15-2011, 10:22 PM
Polygraphs won't help you find the truth, only what people believe to be true.
That may be right. But sometimes it can give you a clue if people are not willing to take such a test at all... Like the parents of missing and "abducted" Madeleine McCann. Or the parents of Jon Benet Ramsey. Anyone still think these people did not have anything to do with their children going missing or ending up dead?
Oh well, back to the topic: I wonder if Clifford Stone would be willing to take a polygraph test? I am guessing he would run like hell from it, hahaha.
Dragonfire
12-15-2011, 10:31 PM
Oh well, back to the topic: I wonder if Clifford Stone would be willing to take a polygraph test? I am guessing he would run like hell from it, hahaha.
Or get his own people to administer it:rolleyes:
SolFlickan
12-15-2011, 10:38 PM
Or get his own people to administer it:rolleyes:
I think Luminari should do the test.
If he has time, that is. He may be too busy witnessing in a court after he has sued me for slander.
:biggrin2:
Luminari
12-15-2011, 11:28 PM
John E. Mack
www.alienscientist.com/harvardpsych.html
John E. Mack studied UFO Abductee cases and administered lie detector tests and rigorous psychological analysis to determine... "They weren't lying"...
http://www.alienscientist.com/harvardpsych.htm
My wife was a client of Dr John Mack- he never arranged a polygraph test for her- these claims are false.
Garuda is correct in dismissing polygraph tests as being unreliable. There is much evidence in circulation to back that stance.
SolFlickan
12-15-2011, 11:34 PM
Garuda is correct in dismissing polygraph tests as being unreliable. There is much evidence in circulation to back that stance.
Speaking of evidence.... Why exactly is this thread in a forum called "Best evidence"? I have never seen Clifford Stone offer any evidence at all, only claims.
Staff, can you guys create a subforum called "Best claims" and move this thread there?
Luminari
12-16-2011, 12:04 AM
The book contains official documents otherwise referred to as 'evidence' for a Ufologist, but you wouldn't know that because you haven't read it.
That's my final word on the Stone book. Cheers.
I am interested in reading the book and I have no position to criticize it without doing so, nor would I.
My earlier comments were in general on the topic.
Its the flakes that cheapen the study of UFOlogy, and sadly those flakes are often women hahaha!
And yes I am female ;)
I personally believe that Clifford Stone is telling the truth because if he's not, then there is no question about it, he deserves a "best acting" Oscar for his efforts. There isn't any one out there who comes across as passionately as he does when he talks about his experiences and what he knows. But there are so many people in the UFO community who do not believe a word he's saying and for this reason, at least for those more tangible claims he makes e.g. his involvement in UFO crash retrieval and that there were dead bodies of ETs at those sites, I mentioned that he should take a polygraph test on that which, in this case, might give those who question his veracity on that, more indication that he may in fact be telling the truth.
Much progress has been made in the technology of polygraphs tests or rather, variations of it (not including the CIA's use of MRI "tests" to determine if someone is telling the truth or not which they also used for suspects involved in 9/11, for example). "...a new technology has recently emerged that applies software to analyze psycholinguistic cues to indicate truthfulness. This new “lie catcher” software was recently applied to the testimony of a key witness to the Roswell UFO crash in early July of 1947. This witness was Major Jesse Marcel. The new technology confirms that Jesse Marcel had indeed told the truth as a Witness to Roswell.
THE TECHNOLOGY
Two renowned professors at the Stevens Institute of Technology in Hoboken, NJ have recently stunned the criminal psychology and law enforcement communities with the introduction of a computer program offering an astounding 86%-99% rate of success in lie detection. The creators of this “veracity software” are Dr. Raj Chandramouli and Dr. Koduvayur Subbalakshmi. The two (who have established Instream Media, LLC) are now developing partnerships with insurance companies (to detect against false claims) and other businesses where deception often comes in to play. The software developed by the professors is an extraordinary text analytics program.
Dr. Chandrmouli (who graciously provided the software and instructions for use to this author) explains that their approach to deceptive content utilizes a unique combination of statistical analysis, linguistics and psychology. The software combs for 88 psycholinguistic cues that indicate whether an individual is “covering up” or speaking the truth as he or she understands and believes it to be. Traditional polygraphs examine such things as pulse, sweat and respiratory rates to determine veracity. Similarly, “voice stress analysis” has been implemented. But the Stevens Institute scientists (who worked with an interdisciplinary team of linguists, psychologists and information technology engineers) believe that the standard polygraph and voice stress approaches have far too many variables and ‘outside influences’ that can adversely affect the accuracy of those machines and those that operate them.
The professors’ approach is far less open to such variables and influences. They and their team developed an algorithm based upon the Freudian notion that the truth always leaks out no matter how hard we attempt to cover it up- a phenomenon of course known as the “Freudian Slip.”
The technology does not require that an individual be “hooked up” in any way to any kind of machine. In fact, the individual does not even need to be alive to use the deception technology. By carefully and accurately transcribing into text the known and confirmed words of what a person has said on tape or in a video, the Stevens Institute technology is able to scrutinize and interpret their words in text form to determine if they are truthful.
THE WITNESS
In 1947, Major Jesse Marcel was stationed at Roswell Army Air Field (RAAF) as a Base Intelligence Officer. He was called by Chaves County Sheriff George Wilcox to respond to ranch foreman Mack Brazel’s visit to him about the discovery of strange debris discovered in a field on the JB Foster Ranch in early July of that year.
Major Marcel, when located in 1978, described seeing, handling and transporting very strange crash debris materials. Marcel said that some of the debris was very thin and light “metal with plastic properties.” He also described other odd material that was impervious to the heat of an applied torch and that would not dent or scratch even from the blows of a sledgehammer. Marcel also mentioned very strange “parchment” material and longer curved metal-like pieces. He said that this sky-fallen debris covered a very large area and that there appeared to have been an explosion in the air. He insisted it was not the debris from any kind of weather balloon or plane, that is was some sort of aircraft not of earth.
Here is a video of Major Marcel confessing to his ET debris discovery in one of his only televised appearances:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcONLgqe-RQ
THE TRUTH
Dr Chandramouli provided this author use of the software to test for falsehood the testimony of Major Marcel. The conversion of key testimony by Marcel was transcribed and the results are in!
To the statement by Marcel:
“One thing that impressed us about the debris was the fact that a lot of it looked like parchment. It had little numbers with symbols that we had to call hieroglyphics because I could not understand them. They could not be read, they were just like symbols, something that meant something, and they were not all the same, but the same general pattern I would say.”
Dr. Chandramouli’s deceptive analysis results indicate: NORMAL, NO DECEPTION
To the statement by Marcel:
“This particular piece of metal was, I would say, about two feet long and perhaps a foot wide. See, that stuff weighs nothing, it’s so thin, it isn’t any thicker that the tinfoil in a pack of cigarettes. So I tried to bend the stuff, it wouldn’t bend. We even tried to make a dent in it with a 16 pound sledge hammer, and there was no dent in it.”
Dr. Chadramouli’s deceptive analysis results indicate: NORMAL, NO DECEPTION
To the statement by Marcel:
“There were small beams about three-eighths of a half inch square with some sort of hieroglyphics on them that nobody could decipher. These looked something like balsa-wood, and were about the same weight, except that they were not wood at all. They were very hard, although flexible, and would not burn.”
Dr. Chadramouli’s deceptive analysis results indicate: NORMAL, NO DECEPTION
CONCLUSIONS
The Stevens Institute technology analysis indicates with certainty that Major Marcel did indeed accurately relate in transcribed interviews the truth as he believed it to be:
Marcel said that there was a crash in the summer of 1947. The debris from that crash included varying types: 1) Parchment-like material with strange, indecipherable symbols 2) beams made of material that was like wood, but “not wood at all” that also had hieroglyphics and that, remarkably, would not burn and 3) unusually thin and unusually light metal-like material that would not even dent to the force of a pounding sledgehammer.
This author is continuing to work through the testimony of Major Marcel, as found in various interview transcripts and films to apply the psycholinguistic lie-catching technology. Comparison to other testimony (such as that of Officer Bill Rickett and Officer Sheridan Cavitt, who were also at the crash scene with Marcel) will be conducted as well and reported on at a later date.
I do not ascribe 100% certainty to anything. It is for this reason that I do not offer a “firm endorsement” of the findings of the Stevens Institute analysis. That qualified, I do believe that it is the best-available technology to ascertain honesty.
Half of writing history is hiding the truth. Hopefully technology will one day free us, at last, to uncover the truth, the whole truth, and to correct history.
Source: http://bragalia.blogspot.com/2011/12/lie-detector-confirms-key-roswell-crash.html
Having said this though, I do agree with Garuda that polygraph tests and other kinds of "truthfulness" technology is not a good option for abductee's and contactee's in regards to administering tests to qualify their statements on their 'encounters'. He gave reasons on why that is and, for the most part, I think he's right about that.
But for more tangible things like UFO crash retrievals and so on...
Below is a wiki quote on the use of Polygraph tests in a court of law in the US
"Admissibility of polygraphs in court
[edit]United States
In 2007, polygraph testimony was admitted by stipulation in 19 states, and was subject to the discretion of the trial judge in federal court. The use of polygraph in court testimony remains controversial, although it is used extensively in post-conviction supervision, particularly of sex offenders. In Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals (1993),[50] the old Frye standard was lifted and all forensic evidence, including polygraph, had to meet the new Daubert standard in which "underlying reasoning or methodology is scientifically valid and properly can be applied to the facts at issue." While polygraph tests are commonly used in police investigations in the US, no defendant or witness can be forced to undergo the test. In United States v. Scheffer (1998), the U.S. Supreme Court left it up to individual jurisdictions whether polygraph results could be admitted as evidence in court cases. Nevertheless, it is used extensively by prosecutors, defense attorneys, and law enforcement agencies.
In the United States, the State of New Mexico admits polygraph testing in front of juries under certain circumstances. In many other states, polygraph examiners are permitted to testify in front of judges in various types of hearings (Motion to Revoke Probation, Motion to Adjudicate Guilt).
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygraph
What makes Stone any more or less credible than Colleen (http://www.freethinkingradio.com/Colleen.html)? Or even the Sauce and Pickles Show?
As a Pleiadian contactee Colleen will no doubt have a role to play in building the world of tomorrow where the humans are free from the dark spirited carnivorous sentient reptilians who have been feeding on human suffering for 10,000 years. Earth will be restored to her original purpose which is to serve as an oasis for star travelers to visit and enjoy in peace, a vacation destination of intergalactic fame.
murmur
12-21-2011, 04:42 PM
What makes Stone any more or less credible than Colleen (http://www.freethinkingradio.com/Colleen.html)?
Colleen has certian attributes?
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