EMDrive

[Dragonfire]

Even if you don’t keep up with developments in space propulsion technology, you’ve still probably heard about the EmDrive. You’ve probably seen headlines declaring it the key to interstellar travel, and claims that it will drastically reduce travel time across our solar system, making our dreams of people walking on other planets even more of a reality. There have even been claims that this highly controversial technology is the key to creating warp drives.

These are bold claims, and as the great cosmologist and astrophysicist Carl Sagan once said, “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” With that in mind, we thought it’d be helpful to break down what we know about the enigmatic EmDrive, and whether it is, in fact, the key to mankind exploring the stars.

So without further ado, here’s absolutely everything you need to know about the world’s most puzzling propulsion device.


Read more: http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/emdrive-news-rumors/#ixzz3z298pYyV


Full article here: http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/emdrive-news-rumors/?utm_source=o1&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=highppv&umm_term=1534128

[Wally]

If we are able to pinpoint the exact location of any unknown extra planets in our solar system, hopefully this could get a probe to them in a reasonable amount of time. But at distances of up to 1200 AU I'm not sure exactly what would constitute 'reasonable'

[Ebenmatter]

Thanks for taking the time to post this for us Dragonfire.

[calikid]

The lack of peer review they mention in the article is strange.
Wonder if the EmDrive works TO GOOD.

[epo333]

This was discussed here:

http://www.theoutpostforum.com/tof/showthread.php?2055-EM-Drive&highlight=EMDrive

anyway,

wrt the EM Drive...

Some might recognize the Diagram on page 6 of (9) the link . . .

http://www.emdrive.com/IAC14publishedpaper.pdf

...Some heavy reading there too...

[pontificator]

The EMDrive research is continuing apace, but there is a curious bit of explaination described here: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601299/the-curious-link-between-the-fly-by-anomaly-and-the-impossible-emdrive-thruster/
Personally I'm interested in seeing what happens with the current prototypes when the dielectric is introduced.

[pontificator]

More information is coming to light, and the NASA paper is being published after its peer preview. In the following article it is interesting to note that research from 10 years ago into such devices has been declassified in the UK, and that those devices are significantly more powerful than the NASA device at this time: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/emdrive-nasa-eagleworks-paper-has-finally-passed-peer-review-says-scientist-know-1578716

For a direct link to the EMdrive site, and the declassified papers please see here: http://www.emdrive.com/

[calikid]

More information is coming to light, and the NASA paper is being published after its peer preview. In the following article it is interesting to note that research from 10 years ago into such devices has been declassified in the UK, and that those devices are significantly more powerful than the NASA device at this time: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/emdrive-nasa-eagleworks-paper-has-finally-passed-peer-review-says-scientist-know-1578716

For a direct link to the EMdrive site, and the declassified papers please see here: http://www.emdrive.com/

Nice of you to drop in Pontificator.

Ten years later, and the info is released? Sounds like a good rule. Funny it has taken so long, on something that sounds promising.

Let's see if I understand this.
A normal spacecraft/rocket, expels ignited fuel out the BACK to propel the craft forward.
Basic Newtonian physics, "opposite and equal reaction"

But this new device places a magnatron/microwave generator at the bottom of the rocket, facing forward with a small diameter microwave emitter nozzle facing the FRONT of the craft.
The microwaves travel some distance and hit a strike plate (located at the FRONT of the rocket) that is much wider in diameter.
As the microwaves spread out (increased diameter), the force they generate when impacting the strike place is increased.
Forward motion is obtained/measurable from this impact.

Pretty unique idea (no propellant/fuel used), it will be interesting to see if the next phase can generate substantial thrust.

Add note: I would not have expected the increased diameter of the microwave beam to act as a force multiplier. Learn something new everyday!

[Wally]

How long will it likely be before it can be used for space missions?

[calikid]

How long will it likely be before it can be used for space missions?

You are getting a little ahead of the curve, Wally.
They have produced a small "proof of concept" device that has produced measurable positive results.

The idea is that somebody sitting in the front seat of their car, can beat on the dashboard with a hammer to generate enough force to propel it forward.
Speaking of which, from what I have seen/read, researchers do not currently possess a device large enough to power even a car, let alone a space craft.
To answer your question I'd guesstimate, if all goes well, something on the order of decades before we see any spacecraft propulsion applications.

[Wally]

You are getting a little ahead of the curve, Wally.
They have produced a small "proof of concept" device that has produced measurable positive results.

The idea is that somebody sitting in the front seat of their car, can beat on the dashboard with a hammer to generate enough force to propel it forward.
Speaking of which, from what I have seen/read, researchers do not currently possess a device large enough to power even a car, let alone a space craft.
To answer your question I'd guesstimate, if all goes well, something on the order of decades before we see any spacecraft propulsion applications.

That's too bad, I was wondering how it would compare to an ion drive in propelling a micro probe, like something less than 10 pounds. While the acceleration may be small give enough time it can really add up.

[pontificator]

A paper has been leaked with early testing results, and more new regarding the launch of a test vehicle in the near future. I noted that someone pointed out that after ~1000 days of continuous operation this drive would be propelling a 1KG mass at 0.35C (~1/3 the speed of light.) This places interstellar exploration of nearby star systems well within reach, and within a rough time-frame comparable to current long-distance probes.

See here for a summary and link to the given paper: http://www.sciencealert.com/leaked-nasa-paper-shows-the-impossible-em-drive-really-does-work

[calikid]

A paper has been leaked with early testing results, and more new regarding the launch of a test vehicle in the near future. I noted that someone pointed out that after ~1000 days of continuous operation this drive would be propelling a 1KG mass at 0.35C (~1/3 the speed of light.) This places interstellar exploration of nearby star systems well within reach, and within a rough time-frame comparable to current long-distance probes.

See here for a summary and link to the given paper: http://www.sciencealert.com/leaked-nasa-paper-shows-the-impossible-em-drive-really-does-work
So a few hopeful researchers are resorting to CUBESAT, a private company that launces shoebox sized payloads for anyone that can pay. That suggests the EM Drive to be tested will be very small. But with luck able to prove proof of concept in a zero G environment.

I think it is Earthman, a member here at TOP Forum, that has a UFO spotter device as payload scheduled with the Same company in 2017?

Anyway, too bad NASA, or some large academic entity with the financial resources is not involved to make a more concerted effort at legitimizing the project.

While it does sound promising, guess it is still considered fringe science until a few peer reviews are published (the one in this article appears to be among the first, hopefully many more positive reviews to come) eliminating more mundane explanations for the results.

[Wally]

A paper has been leaked with early testing results, and more new regarding the launch of a test vehicle in the near future. I noted that someone pointed out that after ~1000 days of continuous operation this drive would be propelling a 1KG mass at 0.35C (~1/3 the speed of light.) This places interstellar exploration of nearby star systems well within reach, and within a rough time-frame comparable to current long-distance probes.

See here for a summary and link to the given paper: http://www.sciencealert.com/leaked-nasa-paper-shows-the-impossible-em-drive-really-does-work

That sounds quite promising. At 1/3 the speed of light we could conceivably get a probe to Proxima Centauri B in less than two decades. Or examine any new planets in our own solar system should we find them. Now the tricky part is building a probe that 's under 5 KG.

[calikid]

That sounds quite promising. At 1/3 the speed of light we could conceivably get a probe to Proxima Centauri B in less than two decades. Or examine any new planets in our own solar system should we find them. Now the tricky part is building a probe that 's under 5 KG.

Why a probe under 5Kg Wally?
Not to tangent to far off the EM Drive itself but
I'm thinking enough shielding to prevent a grain of sand (in a collision) from ripping open the probe at those speeds will be considerably more than 5Kg.

[Wally]

Why a probe under 5Kg Wally?
Not to tangent to far off the EM Drive itself but
I'm thinking enough shielding to prevent a grain of sand (in a collision) from ripping open the probe at those speeds will be considerably more than 5Kg.
A lighter probe would require less energy to propel, but unfortunately would also have less equipment. 5 Kg was just a rough estimate on my part, to propel a 25 Kg probe I'm guessing would require 5 times the needed energy so sending a probe weighing a ton or more like some of the others we have sent out may be too much mass to accelerate quickly.

[Wally]

Here's an article from space.com
Test of 'Impossible' EmDrive Space Engine Passes Peer Review (http://www.space.com/34797-impossible-space-engine-emdrive-study-published.html)

[pontificator]

The Chinese are currently testing their own version of the EM Drive, including on their space station, and have apparently been successful:
Original article: http://digitalpaper.stdaily.com/http_www.kjrb.com/kjrb/html/2016-12/11/content_357004.htm?div=-1
Interpretation in English from Popular science: http://www.popsci.com/emdrive-engine-space-travel-china-success

No pictures from the Chinese, unfortunately, but it does suggest that a race to a practical implementation is underway; despite others in the scientific community suggesting it is impossible.

[pontificator]

The EMDrive is now being developed for a third generation version, further details are available here: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/emdrive-designs-reusable-launch-vehicle-personal-flight-vehicle-revealed-1634322
Current progress is getting more exciting now.

[Wally]

from space.com
'Impossible' EmDrive Space Thruster May Really Be Impossible (https://www.space.com/40682-em-drive-impossible-space-thruster-test.html)
It would be a shame if they are unable to get it to work.