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Lee
11-26-2011, 04:25 PM
Ever since the first reference to MJ-12 appeared in the public domain, controversy has raged over whether the group really existed or not. According to Bob Huff, he was able to receive confirmation that the group existed under that name at one time from several independent sources. The following is excerped from his web site, (http://arioch.us/home/supportin_evidence.htm):

Source #1
Worked with a Naval R&D group at Ft Meade - NSA - in the early and mid-80s. Was inadvertently briefed by MJ12 - he was in mtg he was not suppose to be at when the briefing started.MJ12 attributes include:
- a US-led International group with discretionary distribution of alien information
- Provides technical support to NSA projects
- Read AF docs from the 50's and 60's describing the debris from the Roswell crash
- MJ12 chooses its 'employees'; you cannot apply
- Parts of organization in close proximity to Ft Meade
- Abductions are real
- Aware of near term electromagnetic disruptive Solar events
- May have a mean streak regards inquiring minds Claims the hypersonic AURORA have been flying since 1979.
Claims the hypersonic AURORA have been flying since 1979.

Source #2
Former contractor [ TRW ] with access to extremely sensitive projects. The TRW organization
- based in Reston, VA - specializes in covert surveillance devices.
MJ12 is US Government program that interacts with at least one species of extraterrestrials. MJ12 missions are to manage our interactions with the aliens and to exploit the reversed engineered technology for national purposes. The aliens actively help MJ12 to reverse engineer the technology.
Started in 1947, MJ12 is a NSA program hidden within its 'C' Group. [We both speculated that NSA was established in part to cover MJ12.] Several hundred government workers in accordance with the GS hierarchy make up the MJ12 organization. Source
confirmed that MJ12 recruits it employees against different needs and has some process of potential employee identification and tracking. MJ12 budget is in the multiple billions per year. Though fairly autonomous in its operations, it ultimately reports to a joint committee whose members include the Directors of both the NSA and CIA. The President is not necessarily in the chain.
Some MJ12 facilities are located at Ft. Meade, Northern Virginia, Sandia, Los Alamos, Denver [Buckley Air Force Base], and Los Angeles. As the British are partners [junior?], MJ12 has facilities at Menwith Hill Station, England. Though there are other locations, missions are flown out of Sandia in very special craft. Missions focus on signal intelligence gathered with very exotic technology. Off-Earth capabilities are possible.
Some prime contractors for MJ12 include Lockheed, Boeing, TRW, and TASC.
MJ12 does not directly participate in abductions. Alien abductions of humans were not part of a 'deal'. Source impression was it was for the genetic betterment of the human race.
MJ12 interacts with the aliens in number of different ways: - Live interactions - Radio-like communications
Source had not been briefed on Project Preserve
Destiny but having read the book, believes the account to be true. Though Source does not know of any specific impending natural upheaval, Source has a general fear of such an event.
From a psychological point of view, Source is constantly amazed how individuals who act on behalf of MJ12 can compartment their lives. One example cited was of male seen by Source at a
local restaurant. Apparently when working, this individual flies SIGINT missions aboard very special craft using alien technology. Source was amazed to watch this same individual play with his
children with no hint, of course, of his exposure to entirely new world.
Other bits and pieces: Source knew of Deep Space Probes but Source did not associate it with NSA.
MJ12 is the most highly classified program within the US Government. For the past 50 years the alien-based technology has provided the US with a decisive, strategic advantage in dealing other nations. I would suggest in affect it has FAR exceeded the impact of the British ULTRA on history. One day, the history of the later half of the 20th Century will need to be re-written.
Source #3
Retired AF network and communications specialist. Helped setup some aspects of NORAD’s Network Operations Center (NOC). Knew of MJ12 and NORAD capability to track alien craft.

Source #4
Met a contractor who worked onsite at NRO HQ in Chantilly, VA. The individual worked a specific area and held the appropriate clearances. When asked if there was a MJ12 the individual confirmed the existence of the agency but would reveal no more.

Source #5
A former Navy enlisted man stationed at Ft Meade in the 80's. Was briefed into MJ12. First to cite that MJ12 is a ongoing NSA program hidden away in the 'C Group' corroborated by Source #2. Spoke of the US exploitation of reversed alien technology since the 50's.

Source #6
A former cleared auditor for OMB who 1987 visited MJ12 at Ft. Meade. The individual worked in secure area in the Old Executive building. Here he read and reviewed many US government programs related to Extraterrestrials.

Source #7
Individual is a senior retired AF officer who participated in many black projects. He found the Dan Sherman's 'Project Preserve Destiny' book very plausible and spoke of US studies to manipulate EM mentally. He also thought the principle of noise cancellation could be applied to destroy and/or control weapon systems. His assertions:
- MJ12 is an unacknowledged agency/program headquartered at NORAD
- Been around since at least the 50's
- He referred to the Greys as 'the Visitors'
- It is a composite agency drawing from CIA, NSA, DIA...etc for a very small staffing and a multi- billion dollar budget
- MJ12 exploits and disseminates information of alien origin to other US Government agencies and facilities strategic and tactical military advantages
- Had first hand access to classified information affirming the alien nature of the Roswell crash
- MJ12 spends a lot of money and resources on secure communications [C4I] that could survive an EMP from oh say a massive Solar flare...
- MJ12 is a ruthless bunch
- While at Sandia, read a Top Secret material analysis report of alien debris recovered near Roswell
You assert in your book Project Preserve Destiny that contact with Visitors began in 1947 - the presumption being that Roswell crash was instigator.
Source confirmed the alien nature of the Roswell crash. The individual was high ranking officer working a Sandia National Labs. Specifically he was researching the possibility of using new
materials in the fabrication of nuclear warheads.
While conducting his research in a classified library, he came upon a Top Secret report describing the analysis of the Roswell debris. Though there was no reference to bodies, it did describe the materials properties, the desirability of those properties, and our inability to yet create the materials. Include in the report of was a sketch of a beam with hieroglyphic-like 'writings'. At the time of the report, the symbols were not understood.
In my estimation, given the source's very high rank and areas of responsibility, his 'story' is proof the extraordinary nature of the Roswell crash and, indirectly, another objective verification of your 'story'.
- US has its own flying saucers
Other Stuff
- Been many times to Area 51. While there would be black out period requiring himself and other high ranking officers to locked in a guarded underground room
- Stealth aircraft development benefited from MJ12 supplied materials and processes.
- US nuclear weapons design has benefited from MJ12
- The US has and will assassinate foreign nationals in the US. Upon approval from a special chain of command, special forces will be dispatched to 'execute' the mission
- Thought that some of the alien technology exploitation was conducted by another agency at WPAFB

Source #8
Government employee working network Security issues at the Defense Information Systems Agency (DISA). Acknowledge MJ12 but indicated any further discussion would result to an enforced
stay at Ft. Leavenworth (?). Possible connection to NCS.

Source #9
Former Air Force Academy graduate with Ph.D. in mathematics. Holds several patent and has created proprietary algorithms for the Dept of Treasury, Justice and NSA. Also acknowledged MJ12 but again another entity you don't talk about.

Miscellaneous
Discovered that within the CIA's Directorate of Intelligence that there is a SCI coded intelligence source named MAJESTIC. AF COL remarked that MJ12 uses this codeword for
information classification.
See: http://arioch.us/home/supportin_evidence.htm

For those interested in more backround here is Robert James Huff's extensive Resume http://arioch.us/home/docs/rjresumeWeb.htm

Lee
11-26-2011, 04:26 PM
Here also is the "My lunch with MJ12" article referenced above:

I will name my source SARGON. SARGON was a contractor briefed into the MJ12 organization. SARGON has now been out both organizations for a year. The summary of our lunch conversation is: MJ12 is US Government program that interacts with at least one species of extraterrestrials.
MJ12 missions are to manage our interactions with the aliens and to exploit the reversed engineered technology for national purposes. The aliens actively help MJ12 to reverse engineer the technology. Started in 1947, MJ12 is a NSA program hidden within its 'C' Group. [We both speculated that NSA was established in part to cover MJ12.] Several hundred government workers in accordance with the GS hierarchy make up the MJ12 organization. SARGON confirmed that MJ12 recruits it employees against different needs and has some process of potential employee identification and tracking.
MJ12 budget is in the multiple billions per year. Though fairly autonomous in its operations, it ultimately reports to a joint committee whose members include the Directors of both the NSA and CIA. The President is not necessarily in the chain.
Some MJ12 facilities are located at Ft. Meade, Northern Virginia, Sandia, Los Alamos, Denver [Buckley Air Force Base], and Los Angeles. As the British are partners [junior?], MJ12 has facilities at Menwith Hill Station, England. Though there are other locations, missions are flown out of Sandia in very special craft. Missions focus on signal intelligence gathered with very exotic technology. Off-Earth capabilities are possible.
Some prime contractors for MJ12 include Lockheed, Boeing, TRW, and TASC. One such TRW facility is located in a SCIF on the third floor of 1895 Preston White Drive in Reston, VA work directly for MJ12. The TRW facility there used to be a corporation named ESL which specialized in covert SIGINT collection.
MJ12 does not directly participate in abductions. Alien abductions of humans were not part of a 'deal'. SARGON impression was it was for the genetic betterment of the human race. MJ12 interacts with the aliens in number of different ways:
+ Live interactions
+ Radio-like communications
SARGON had not been briefed on Project Preserve Destiny but having read the book, believes the account to be true. Though SARGON does know of any specific impending natural upheaval, SARGON has a general fear of such an event. From a psychological point of view, SARGON is constantly amazed how individuals who act on behalf of MJ12 can compartment their lives. One example cited was of male seen by SARGON at a local restaurant. Apparently when working, this individual flies SIGINT missions aboard very special craft using alien technology. SARGON was amazed to watch this same individual play with his children with no hint, of course, of his exposure to entirely new world.
MJ12 is the most highly classified program within the US Government. For the past 50 years the alien-based technology has provided the US with a decisive, strategic advantage in dealing other nations. I would suggest in affect it has FAR exceeded the impact of the British ULTRA on history. One day, the history of the later half of the 20th Century will need to be re - written.
Late Breaking News: Another source KREIG confirms seeing MJ12 in a NSA budget report. Further, that in 1987 KREIG met with MJ12 at Ft Meade.
Source: http://arioch.us/home/my_lunch_with_mj12.htm

Lee
11-26-2011, 04:29 PM
In an attempt to verify some of this information I contacted Bob Huff in 2009, his response follows:

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: RE: Your MJ12 source material
From: "bob" <bob@******.us>
Date: Sun, June 7, 2009 10:29 pm
To: "Lee@******.com"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Lee,

Interesting seeing some of my earlier posting re-posted.
Since those postings, some new items of possible interest:

- Because a NSA Director from the 1980's is a West Point graduate as I am I
was able to setup an email interchange between he and Dan Sherman, the
author of 'Above Black'. Essentially, the former director denied knowledge
of Sherman's program or MJ-12 - not totally unexpected but was interesting
to watch the interchange.

- On a flight I met an SAIC executive, a retired AF Major General. Before
joining SAIC, his last command was as the deputy commander of NORAD. While
He found the idea of Sherman's 'Project Preserve Destiny' possible I was
particularly intrigued by his comment that he had been 'briefed on Roswell'.
If Roswell was a non-event, what was he briefed on?"

- Met a worker from Rocky Flats - a now closed nuclear bomb facilitation
site in Colorado - who was aware of MJ-12. Workers, who were plutonium
machinists, were sometimes recruited and sent west for two weeks at a time.

- Met a woman who worked at Lockheed Martin's Waterton Canyon site who read
about MJ-12 in a document referencing the use of nuclear power for flight
operations
.
One posting I don't see reference is my encounter with another West Point
graduate who was a former Air Defense Artillery officer. In the early 80's,
he recounted that his Patriot battery Doppler radars would sometimes pick up
extraordinary UFOs. When these events happened, civilians would come to the
battery and download the associated computer data. His battery commander
indicated they were from NORAD and from MJ-12.

Best Regards,

Bob

calikid
12-02-2011, 03:13 PM
Hi Lee,

What is your take on the MJ-12 documents?
SOM-1, Briefing docs, etc.

I found Stanton Friedman's book, Top Secret/MAJIC an interesting read.

Do you find the docs credible?

Lee
12-02-2011, 03:53 PM
Hi calikid,

That's a big question! Let me get back to you when I have more time.

For now, I'll just say that I think there is a possibility that MJ-12 existed at one time (under that name or possibly another), a few of the documents might be genuine, some are certainly fake.

Garuda
12-05-2011, 10:34 AM
Robert and Ryan Wood run the Majestic Documents web site (http://www.majesticdocuments.com/), which has plenty of interesting information on the MJ-12 (and other) documents.

Here's a video of a presentation they did at the 2011 X-Conference that partly covers the topic.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQqv5k8J28A

noot
12-05-2011, 05:09 PM
That Majestic is real is an artical of faith and point of departure for all committed ufologists. Without that we lose our purpose. Just sayin...

DeepCut
12-05-2011, 06:03 PM
noot, nice signature.

I don't think it's as real as an article of faith, but when i think of the definition of faith, perhaps it is that real !

And no-one who is committed to finding out the truth about extraterrestrial visitation here on Earth would lose their purpose if these documents didn't exist, there's plenty of other information around, including excellent witness testimony.

Some of them are certainly fake, they don't have the complex headers nor the language of the military or intelligence-minded.

Then again, perhaps something so 'high-level' wouldn't have the complex headers because the distribution list would be tiny.

Excellent post though Lee, and nice to hear from Bob himself, lots of food for thought.

Redbone
12-05-2011, 06:17 PM
My take on the matter is that MJ12 is real and the SOM-1 documents are as well. Stanton Friedman comes across as a trustworthy individual to me. I am also an avid supporter of Colonel Corso. I have read pro's and con's but I lean toward the pros on this one.

CasperParks
01-15-2012, 04:32 AM
I suspect that Majestic is and or was real, if Majestic continues today it maybe be in another form.

Doc
01-15-2012, 05:27 AM
A lot of effort has gone into debunking the documents and with them, MJ-12. The people who support them seem to be more trustworthy than the debunkers so far. I think MJ-12 is likely real but has probably changed quite a lot since Roswell.

noot
01-15-2012, 05:22 PM
Real.

Doc
01-16-2012, 02:14 AM
Bruce Maccabee did some work with the Cutler Twining Memorandum which refers to MJ-12.

http://brumac.8k.com/index.html

I believe that Bruce Maccabee is one of the sincere investigators that have tried diligently to get answers to question raised about serious cases. He might be wrong occasionally but he is an honest broker.


If you go there and you have never read Hawk Tails, it is worth a download. The Hawk may be one of the best first person witnesses ever for the depth of knowledge and the things he witnessed and was told.


.."he asked if it was classified, and he was told no, because you can't classify something that doesn't exist."

epo333
02-01-2014, 01:53 PM
Here is an interview with Don Deppeller on K-TALK Fringe Radio for those of you interested...

http://www.k-talk.com/index.php/archive/

click on Fringe Radio file, then

click on Don Deppeller's mp3

Anyway, there is no time stamp but much is covered about MJ12 and more (NSA) as the interview progresses.

majicbar
02-02-2014, 03:06 AM
"Some of them are certainly fake, they don't have the complex headers nor the language of the military or intelligence-minded.

Then again, perhaps something so 'high-level' wouldn't have the complex headers because the distribution list would be tiny."

Kelly Johnson in the A-12 project went with production drawings that were without headers. His justification was that with the provenance of the headers, etc., the document got real, where one without such "authentication" could be passed off as someone's speculation.

Marvin
02-13-2014, 02:00 PM
There is too much misinformation, gray propaganda and forgeries to ignore the possibility of such a group existing (at least in the past). Where there is smoke, there is fire. I would imagine they have changed the name of the group in the interest of removing them from the public view (and removing traceability), assuming they existed at all. I have always found it interesting that the CIA was formed in 1947 (slightly post Roswell). I guess we will never really know for sure.


M

Doc
02-14-2014, 01:59 AM
Doc's Theory of Hoaxes: The likelihood of a Hoax is inversely proportional to the Mass of the Debunking + the Military/Social/Academic Rank of the Debunker(s)

majicbar
02-14-2014, 03:22 AM
Doc's Theory of Hoaxes: The likelihood of a Hoax is inversely proportional to the Mass of the Debunking + the Military/Social/Academic Rank of the Debunker(s)
It would seem more in keeping with experience and form that the equation would be inversely proportional to the mass of the debunking times (x) the military/social/academic rank of the debunker(s). If there were nothing there no effort would be made at all. Do we see any effort to debunk zombies or vampires? Some UFOs are real and perhaps a real threat to which the PTB want to keep secret and under their control.

CasperParks
02-14-2014, 09:29 AM
There is too much misinformation, gray propaganda and forgeries to ignore the possibility of such a group existing (at least in the past). Where there is smoke, there is fire. I would imagine they have changed the name of the group in the interest of removing them from the public view (and removing traceability), assuming they existed at all. I have always found it interesting that the CIA was formed in 1947 (slightly post Roswell). I guess we will never really know for sure.

M

Name changes are common to conceal, attempts at convincing an organization no longer exists, renaming to distance themselves from bad publicity. This sort of behavior is common among businesses.

Doc
02-14-2014, 11:12 PM
It would seem more in keeping with experience and form that the equation would be inversely proportional to the mass of the debunking times (x) the military/social/academic rank of the debunker(s). If there were nothing there no effort would be made at all. Do we see any effort to debunk zombies or vampires? Some UFOs are real and perhaps a real threat to which the PTB want to keep secret and under their control.

I like that idea! I wanted to get the factors out there and see if anyone could add to or rearrange it. MY you way of looking at it, where would put say, Bob Lazar?

Pandora'sParadox
02-23-2014, 09:27 PM
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/serpo/operations_manual.htm

cheers. :-)

epo333
02-24-2014, 02:38 AM
Some other massive link... for mj-12

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_sociopol_mj12.htm

Pandora'sParadox
02-24-2014, 05:05 PM
my eyes...are burning from reading so much...damn you biblioteca!!!

epo333
06-06-2014, 02:18 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mhRLKuJWyg

The origins of the Majestic 12 documents has its roots in a complicated set of events that included disinformation, hoaxes, and lies. For this reason, most of this history has been lost or is glossed over. However, the true origins of the documents and how UFO researchers came to know the term Majestic 12, is important when assessing their legitimacy. We have taken months to investigate this story, which has included working with the public relations department of the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations. While our investigation is ongoing, in this video we share with you what we have found thus far.

To see a list of sources, and to download the documents we refer to in this story, visit:

http://www.openminds.tv/open-letter-u-s-air-force-allegations-ufo-disinformation/27071

majicbar
06-06-2014, 04:44 AM
I like that idea! I wanted to get the factors out there and see if anyone could add to or rearrange it. MY you way of looking at it, where would put say, Bob Lazar?Lazar, sorry for the late reply, my feelings, feelings mind you, are that some of what Lazar says have an element of having happened. I believe he over-blew his credentials to Teller and got into a program that he had no business being in. Lazar's antics do not speak of rational adult behavior, those behaviors got him knocked out of whatever he found himself in, in short order. I know enough that perhaps I too could be placed into such a program, but I would not do anything to get myself removed. Lazar perhaps has a personality, or socialization disorder which makes all he does look odd, not normal. Could he have a small stash of stable element 115? I think that is possible. U-233 and U-235 are not so radioactive that they can not be handled. Old element 115, which might be several millions years old would be similarly minimally radioactive when not in an active reactor, and surrounded by moderating elements, such as old gold, or U-238. I will listen to Lazar, but I do not feel that he should be trusted, but that again is my feeling.

Pandora'sParadox
06-06-2014, 05:47 AM
Im leaning that way also... What he said ^ LoL.

Charlie Prime
06-06-2014, 01:40 PM
All information from government sources is by definition contaminated.

It should be treated with the same caution before consuming with which you would treat a piece of candy you found laying on the sidewalk.

Pandora'sParadox
06-06-2014, 06:59 PM
(Peter Griffin Voice)

Ohh piece of candy...ohh piece of candy...

Because we all know, if its gov'ment stamped, it's authentic. :wall:

Garuda
08-01-2014, 04:43 PM
And a new twist in the story:

http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/weekender-controversial-mj-12-document-found-inside-declassified-department-defense-file

A copy of the Eisenhower Briefing Document was allegedly found in a recently declassified document.

Edit to add: here's the link to the declassified document on the DOD site:
http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/operation_and_plans/Exercises_and_Projects/175.pdf

majicbar
08-01-2014, 07:31 PM
And a new twist in the story:

http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/weekender-controversial-mj-12-document-found-inside-declassified-department-defense-file

A copy of the Eisenhower Briefing Document was allegedly found in a recently declassified document.

Edit to add: here's the link to the declassified document on the DOD site:
http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/operation_and_plans/Exercises_and_Projects/175.pdfBriefing document buryed back at pages 449 - 456. Clearly placed in document for release, but why? Someone went to effort to mark it as unauthenticated but did not isolate it, again why? As a copy one of one it would be unique piece, how did it "escape"? And the whole "Pandora" project looks funny, was it itself legitimate or is the whole thing disinformation?

calikid
08-04-2014, 05:56 PM
The initial Pandora project page is dated 1966 (Pg 1) vs Briefing Doc dated 1952 (pg 449).
Weird two documents from different eras would become co-mingled.

Downloaded DIRECT from DOD site makes it even stranger.
I would expect DOD to proof their FOIA releases more closely.... excise material unrelated to the request.

I see Johns-Hopkins particle physics lab listed on the Pandora docs.
Not familiar with their lab, but the hospital/medical school is world class.
I wonder if it would be reasonable to think such a briefing document would either originate, or end up archived in their files?

CasperParks
08-04-2014, 08:13 PM
Life on the road... Not able to stay up to date on everything. This is one topic that has my interest.

Edgar Fouche
10-01-2014, 01:55 AM
The MJ-12 Cutler Twining Memo Debate!

Since I know both these men, have met them, know their works and background, I have to totally side with Stanton Friedman! Totally... Stanton is a former degreed Nuclear Physicist! What is Kevin? No one has ever caught Stanton Friedman in a lie or fabrication of the truth. Furthermore my esteemed co-author Brad Steiger (author of 160+ published books since the 60s), has been friends with Stanton for over 40 years. He totally supports Stanton and was part of the original Friedman, Jaime Shandera,
Bill Moore release and discloser (pre and post 1985) of the MJ-12 documents. Edgar Fouche.

See Documents Mentioned:
https://www.google.com/search?q=MJ-12+documents+pictures&biw=1012&bih=603&tbm=isch&imgil=63RrSYLznj2d8M%253A%253BxBhcbRSzGhCX1M%253Bh ttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ufocasebook.com%25252F documents.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=63RrSYLznj2d8M%253A%252CxBhcbRSzGhCX1M%252C_&usg=__66xsMPUuxnnt0XcekU6s1GYeyFM%3D&ved=0CD0Qyjc&ei=K0IrVIePDtGSyAS7rYC4Dg#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=63RrSYLznj2d8M%253A%3BxBhcbRSzGhCX1M%3Bhttp% 253A%252F%252Fwww.ufocasebook.com%252Fmaj%252Fmj5. jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ufocasebook.com%252Fd ocuments.html%3B550%3B700
MJ-12: Renowned Ufologist, Stanton Friedman Issues Debate Challenge To Naysayers
By Stanton Friedman, The UFO Chronicles, 9-21-14

I would hereby like to Publicly challenge Kevin and/or Robert Hastings, and/or Barry Greenwood, and/or Alejandro Rojas or all together to a debate about the legitimacy of the the Cutler Twining Memo, The Truman Forrestal memo, the Eisenhower Briefing Document. I have long acknowledged that there are a large number of phony documents out there. The question is whether those three are legitimate as I have demonstrated. I think an appropriate site would be during the IUFOC in February in Arizona.The debate I had 2 years ago there with John Alexander was very well attended.I have no idea why people think it is more important to talk about the machinations of Richard Doty, Bill Moore, Jaime Shandera, Paul Bennewitz etc than about all the facts that I noted which were not known to be true until after the documents were received.How did a hoaxer know those facts?As a nuclear guy I long ago leaned to focus on what is relevant. That 99.3% of uranium atoms in nature are not fissionable, tellls us nothing about the 0.3% that are. I would say let all sell their books What say you all?
http://www.theufochronicles.com/2014/09/mj-12-renowned-ufologist-stanton.html

MJ-12: Kevin Randle Rails Against Stanton Friedman's Rebuttal

By Kevin Randle, The UFO Chronicles, 1-28-14

Really? This is the best you can do? I (Randle) can produce a long analysis of the MJ-12 mythology, complete with documentation and the best you can do is point out a mistake that is the result of a misplaced phrase and a computer glitch.* Of course I knew that Cutler had not signed the memo. You said so in your book. This is trivia.

Instead, let’s discuss the lack of provenance. In every other leak of classified material into the public arena, there is a provenance. The reporter, researcher, recipient of the material knows the source who is available to them for questions and authentication. With MJ-12 none of those factors are in evidence and in the world of leaked and questioned documents, this is a huge red flag. You are unable to provide the name of the source or a repository of the information that can be used to verify the authenticity. Without that, you have a work of fiction.

In fact, that could well be the genesis of MJ-12. Bill Moore, Bob Pratt, and probably Richard Doty collaborated on a novel that had the working title MAJIK – 12, but Moore changed the name to The Aquarius Project. It is the blueprint for MJ-12 and was written two YEARS before the film allegedly arrived at Jaime Shandera’s house. When MJ-12 was revealed to the world, Bob Pratt thought it time to “dust off” the novel and see if they could sell it. Isn’t that an interesting coincidence?

And you must remember that Bill Moore talked to you about creating a “Roswell” document in the hopes it would suggest to some witnesses it was now legal for them to talk about the classified research. Yes, you have denied this in the past, but Moore mentioned it to others so it is not from a single source, it is the genesis of MJ-12.

Let’s talk about Project Aquarius, which you ignore. This is, in fact, the original program that evolved into MJ-12. The first mention of MJ-12 is in a document that also mentions Project Aquarius, which it turns out, is a hoax. Isn’t it interesting that this initial appearance of MJ-12 is a hoax? And I haven’t even mentioned the MJ-5 fiasco.

And don’t forget that you have said repeatedly that the Cutler/Twining memo was planted in the National Archives. We just disagree on who placed it there. You fail to mention that the carbon copy was folded as it would have been if mailed (and which makes it easier to conceal in the inside pocket of a suit jacket), but there is no reason to fold it because it would have been filed flat. To me it was planted to provide a provenance for an MJ-12 document as a way to blunt that argument. It failed in that respect.

I don’t really care to argue about the trivia of the distances to the debris field but will say this. It would seem that in a document that includes a section of maps (unavailable to us) it would have the distances calculated precisely, especially from a military organization that contains a couple of dozen trained navigators. Their jobs were critical in combat, so they would have been able to provide precise distances and locations (grid coordinates) which should have been reflected in the body of the EBD but are not.

But the fatal flaw is the Robert Willingham nonsense. Here is something that reflects the state of UFO research in the mid-1980s. Many of us believed in the 1980s that Willingham’s tale of seeing a crashed flying saucer was true when his affidavit appeared. We believed him because he was a high-ranking Air Force officer telling a tale that seemed to be plausible. We believed that Todd Zechel had verified Willingham’s credentials, and now, in the EBD, there was further evidence that his story was true.

But the first version of Willingham’s tale took place in 1948 and involved three objects, one of which crashed. This version was published in 1968 in Skylook and told us Willingham was a CAP officer as opposed to an Air Force officer. To make it worse, he claims to have been flying a fighter that wasn’t operational in 1948.

In the version that appears in the MJ-12 document, the crash took place on December 6, 1950. This can be traced to Zechel and Moore and suggests the UFO was “incinerated” upon impact. Willingham tacitly agreed with that date, but later changed it so that he could tell his ridiculous story about flying fighters in Korea in December 1950.

In the last version, Willingham said that the events took place in 1954 or 1955. If true, then the tale couldn’t appear in a document created in 1952. And further research proved that Willingham had not been an Air Force officer nor was he a fighter pilot. His tale was invention and shouldn’t appear in a document created at the highest levels for the president. They would have known it wasn’t true if it had been told prior to the creation of the EBD, unless, of course, the EBD was created in the 1980s by those who weren’t on the inside and believed the tale at the time.

There is absolutely no evidence of a crash in the El Indio - Guerrero area of Mexico. And before we have to hear that “absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence” I should point out that I have searched everywhere for evidence of this event. Friends and colleagues have searched for anything related to this published in the right time frame or witnessed in the right time frame at the locations mentioned and have failed. There is nothing to suggest a UFO crash on December 6, 1950. At this point, given the situation, those advocating the authenticity of MJ-12 must present something other than the MJ-12 document as evidence that this crash happened and if unable to do so, should then reevaluate their opinion on MJ-12. Or, to put a point on it, absence of evidence is evidence of absence in this case.

In fact, let’s take it a step farther, if you are advocating a crash on the Plains of San Agustin in July 1947, then you must explain why that is not mentioned in the MJ-12 document. These two points seem to be mutually exclusive. If MJ-12 is real, then this crash must not have happened. If there was such a crash, then MJ-12 must be in error. There would be no reason to withhold this information from a document prepared for the president. Both can’t be authentic and I suspect both are fraudulent.

Or, if you believe there was a crash in Aztec, NM in March 1948, then why wasn’t it mentioned in the MJ-12 document? Doesn’t its absence argue against the authenticity of the Aztec crash? Conversely, if Aztec is a real event, then doesn’t that argue against the authenticity of MJ-12?

What we have in the MJ-12 document is the situation as it existed in the mid-1980s. At that time, those who faked the document didn’t believe in Aztec or the Plains crash but did in the Willingham tale. They attempted to create a document that seemed to have been written in 1952, but these elements have helped us date it. Willingham’s UFO crash tale is the real fatal flaw in MJ-12.

But rather than talk about these points critical to MJ-12, we delve into minutia of it with little regard to the overall picture. We engage in “gotcha” argument rather than something of substance that actually helps us resolve this dilemma. So there is a minor error in my analysis?

Read more at:
http://www.theufochronicles.com/2014/09/mj-12-kevin-randle-rails-against.html

Lee
10-01-2014, 11:16 PM
Thanks for posting that, Ed.

Stan Friedman has done some excellent work and I value his opinion. Kevin Randle does raise some important and interesting points which might be difficult to address though. I hope the challenge plays out as a full debate, could be very productive.

I remember the retyped MJ-2 documents from your book that we posted at OMF, Ed. I still have copies of the 'Reagan Briefing' and 'Autopsy Report'. What was the background to those again? Where did they come from?

Edgar Fouche
10-02-2014, 02:07 AM
I received the 'MJ-12 Charter', signed by proxy by President Reagan, and the 'Attachment D - Preliminary Autopsy' from a friend in the mid 90s after he read a draft of my book Alien Rapture.

I had no clue about what or whom the MJ-12 Committee is/was. The friend, whom I've referred to in the last 15 years as 'Dale' was one of my 'insider' friends that helped me with information on my book. I've known Dale since when we were in Vietnam in the late 60s. We're still very close.

His father was career NSA. It's a long story but Dale's father allowed Dale to send me these two copies. We never emailed or talked career or private matters on the phone. I got the documents cold.

A couple of names and perhaps one date was blackened out. This was about 20 years ago. I typed them up and made copies and sent one to my co-author Brad Steiger. He is the one that educated me on everything he knew about the MJ-12, and he was an expert on the subject. He decided to work the two new MJ-12 documents via fiction just in case they were highly classified.

Now we can't prove either of these two documents are real. However the new MJ-12 charter wording is exactly how a classified charter would be written on this subject. I've written or been on high ranking teams in putting together classified directives, including, aerospace vehicles, avionics systems, and computer driven test equipment. Contracts and Request for Proposals, to DoD contractors. Proposals for new classified aerospace programs, the 'Statement of Work' (SOWs), and development of new Military Specifications (Mil-Spec). So I have 30 years experience from 67-97 in this area and do believe it is a government document (MJ-12) charter, however it can be totally true, half true, or totally false?

Anyone who has a copy of either of these two documents from my book may post them on this forum.
Go to: http://www.amazon.com/Alien-Rapture-Unabridged-Version-Restored-ebook/dp/B00N339LHE
Click on: "Look Inside" and then click on 'Cover.' You will see the cover of the book, a Chapter list, and as you scroll further down you will see the full Chapter 1 and 2. Go to Chapter Two and you will find the 'New MJ-12 Chapter' signed by proxy by President Reagan.


Ed Fouche
PS: This restored long original version of 'Alien Rapture' is approved by me. I have received NO money from this. It is priced at our development cost, $4.50.
http://www.amazon.com/Alien-Rapture-Unabridged-Version-Restored-ebook/dp/B00N339LHE


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