FBI Records 'Guy Hottel', UFO's & Radar

[lux aurea in obscuro]

Good morning,


I am starting this thread following on from recent debates regarding the possibility of radar and detection equipment having a negative effect on UFO's. While searching for information I discovered something of interest on the FBI's on site, please see link below and details:

http://vault.fbi.gov/hottel_guy/guy%20part%201%20of%201/view


Having attempted to upload the PDF doc, which is not possible as TOP limit's things to 20kb? seems a bit tiny so I shall quote the contents below should you have any problems with the link above...

"office memorandum . UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT


To: Director FBI Date: March 22nd 1950

From: Guy Hottel, SAC, Washington


Subject: FLYING SAUCERS
INFORMATION CONCERNING


The following information was furnished to 'BLANKED OUT'


An investigator for the Air Force stated that three so-called
flying saucers had been recovered in New Mexico. They were
described as being circular in shape with raised centers, appoxi
matley 50feet in diameter. Each one was occupied by three bodies
of human shape but only 3 feet tall, dressed in a metallic cloth of
a very fine texture. Each body was bandaged in a manner similar
to the blackout suits used by speed flyers and test pilots.

According to Mr 'BLANK' informant, the saucers were found in New
Mexico due to the fact the government has a very-high powered
radar set-up in that area and it is believed the radar interferes
with the controlling mechanics of the saucers.

No further evaluation was attempted by 'BLANK' concerning the
above.


RHK:VIM"


Happy to have found this on the FBI website, I hope to bring you more supporting evidence regarding radar and it's effect's on UFO's.


Kind regards.

[majicbar]

Good morning,


I am starting this thread following on from recent debates regarding the possibility of radar and detection equipment having a negative effect on UFO's. While searching for information I discovered something of interest on the FBI's on site, please see link below and details:

http://vault.fbi.gov/hottel_guy/guy%20part%201%20of%201/view


Having attempted to upload the PDF doc, which is not possible as TOP limit's things to 20kb? seems a bit tiny so I shall quote the contents below should you have any problems with the link above...

"office memorandum . UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT


To: Director FBI Date: March 22nd 1950

From: Guy Hottel, SAC, Washington


Subject: FLYING SAUCERS
INFORMATION CONCERNING


The following information was furnished to 'BLANKED OUT'


An investigator for the Air Force stated that three so-called
flying saucers had been recovered in New Mexico. They were
described as being circular in shape with raised centers, appoxi
matley 50feet in diameter. Each one was occupied by three bodies
of human shape but only 3 feet tall, dressed in a metallic cloth of
a very fine texture. Each body was bandaged in a manner similar
to the blackout suits used by speed flyers and test pilots.

According to Mr 'BLANK' informant, the saucers were found in New
Mexico due to the fact the government has a very-high powered
radar set-up in that area and it is believed the radar interferes
with the controlling mechanics of the saucers.

No further evaluation was attempted by 'BLANK' concerning the
above.


RHK:VIM"


Happy to have found this on the FBI website, I hope to bring you more supporting evidence regarding radar and it's effect's on UFO's.


Kind regards.

I find it highly creditable that radar could negatively affect some UFOs flight systems. I believe that some UFOs use a microwave system to heat and polarize the air around them and then use electrostatic charges on the surface of the UFO to attract itself toward, or repel itself off of, that air. Remember that the means of heating by microwave is spinning the Hydrogen atom which is highly magnetic. If the Hydrogen atom can be spun it can also be polarized to face one direction only. Relatively low power microwaves would influence the atmosphere near the craft so as not to need a large aeromotive source. Small tiles of metal could be electrically charged to interact with the polarized atmosphere around the UFO, much like those tiles which compromised some of the "Art's Parts" supposedly from the Roswell crash site, which were given to Art Bell of the Coast to Coast radio show some years back and analyzed with Linda Moulton Howe.

Advantages of such a microwave flight system, rumored to also be used on the USAF B-2, would be allowing the UFOs flight to occur in a more rarefied air lessening the power required for flight and lessening the sonic boom problem. The flight system would be very reactive and allow very quick turns as the mass of the air involved would be far more than what would be found by deflecting air in contact with a flight surface such as in normal aircraft flight systems. Such a polarized microwave system could well also perform a radar absorbing, or reflecting, function depending on the incoming radar beam.

It is also instructive that the first circularly polarized radar systems ( designed to prevent jamming and improve performance in storms ) were just being installed in the White Sands Missile Range in 1947. It was about this time that UFOs were observed to behave with the "falling leaf" behavior which might be a sign that this circularly polarized was affecting UFO microwave flight systems. It might be that this is what brought down the Roswell craft or crafts, or at least interfering such that during the storm thought to be associated with that crash cause the UFOs to loose control and crash into each other.

Why do we not see the "falling leaf" behavior any more? The UFOs would have learned to adapt there systems to incoming circular polarization and could themselves use a microwave that accommodated the forcing effect of the ground radar and neutralized it from affecting its own flight systems. I think from what I've read that some similar systems are used by the USAF in counter radar systems that have been developed since Vietnam.

Also in the "Condon Report" there was an appendix report that a US Naval photographer was crossing the Great Salt Lake Utah when he noticed white objects milling around in the air, but wearing polarized sun glasses they had "Newtonian rings" around each individual object, which he could not see without the sunglasses. He grabbed a 16mm camera and photographed them. The individual objects were not resolved in the frames taken and it was thought by Blue Book that these were seagulls. Seagulls have never been seen before, or since, causing "Newtonian rings" in the air around them. If these were UFOs and they were using a microwave system such as I speculate here, one would see "Newtonian Rings" in the air around them.

Now, one can say this is all speculative, which is fair, but on the other hand without the USAF hiding and remaining silent on the details of what is a certain incident, we would better be able to judge without speculation on what really happened in Roswell and in the overall case for UFOs.

[lux aurea in obscuro]

good afternoon Majicbar,

Thanks for your input and very simply put, I believe your on the money regarding the flight and propulsion systems.

Talking about this has made me question again the origins of UFO's. I believe the majority of sightings are in fact terrestrial UFO's which have been back engineered. As you mention the craft over the years having adapted. Now not being effected by radar equipment to the same degree as in the past.

Which for me begs another question if these downed craft were as stated carrying a number of ET's how come they were unaware and unable to prevent crashing? It would indicate they were not from the future having no knowledge of the adverse risks regarding radar.

If these ET's were not from the future they are in our present time frame and here now, or possibly from the past which would seem unlikely. This or very local in a cosmic way ie, Moon, Mars or Venus based?

Of course the authorities will remain silent in fact I believe they will remain so until an event unfolds and then downplay having any knowledge or experiences of ET and UFO's.

New York must have been a crazy place those few years back, Montauk project and Manhattan project I wonder what other secrets line those streets.

kind regards.

[AdverseCamber]

Good morning,


I am starting this thread following on from recent debates regarding the possibility of radar and detection equipment having a negative effect on UFO's. While searching for information I discovered something of interest on the FBI's on site, please see link below and details:

http://vault.fbi.gov/hottel_guy/guy%20part%201%20of%201/view


Having attempted to upload the PDF doc, which is not possible as TOP limit's things to 20kb? seems a bit tiny so I shall quote the contents below should you have any problems with the link above...

<snip>


http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/s474/Adverse_Camber_forums/guy_hottel_p1.jpg

[majicbar]

good afternoon Majicbar,

Thanks for your input and very simply put, I believe your on the money regarding the flight and propulsion systems.

Talking about this has made me question again the origins of UFO's. I believe the majority of sightings are in fact terrestrial UFO's which have been back engineered. As you mention the craft over the years having adapted. Now not being effected by radar equipment to the same degree as in the past.

Which for me begs another question if these downed craft were as stated carrying a number of ET's how come they were unaware and unable to prevent crashing? It would indicate they were not from the future having no knowledge of the adverse risks regarding radar.

If these ET's were not from the future they are in our present time frame and here now, or possibly from the past which would seem unlikely. This or very local in a cosmic way ie, Moon, Mars or Venus based?

Of course the authorities will remain silent in fact I believe they will remain so until an event unfolds and then downplay having any knowledge or experiences of ET and UFO's.

New York must have been a crazy place those few years back, Montauk project and Manhattan project I wonder what other secrets line those streets.

kind regards.

I think the proper working perspective is that most if not all of the extraterrestrial aliens are far in advance of the technology of flight than are we. I'm sure now that many of the UFOs seen are ours. The earlier UFOs which were of exo-origins may simply not have had the idea that we'd be as advanced as we were so quickly, radar for detection and tracking was basically a decade old in 1947, and was a special technical development of WWII origin. It may be that the aliens had little idea of what our radar would do to their fight mechanisms, they probably had to go to a special library of technological history to see how our "primitive" technology would work and what it would do to their UFOs. Once this realization had taken place they would see that with our atomic weapons we were becoming a dangerous force to Universal tranquility. There is the possibility that the craft were simply downed as with any aerial accident. Flight can be unforgiving and kill quickly. The forces of velocity, momentum and gravity all place any flight vehicle in a regime where any loss of control or awareness of situation will lead to an accident. Perhaps individual life is not a critical parameter in their social structure, maybe they are not technologically magic after all, there are many possibilities in what may have happened to bring them down.

[AdverseCamber]

I wrote a little about this back in 2011 when the memo resurfaced (as it does every few years).

Have you ever heard of Silas Newton?

Some of the more seasoned (read: tainted) members here will have, I trust you know Moore of Bennewitz infamy?

Here's two pages from part 1 of CRASHED UFOS, EVIDENCE IN THE SEARCH FOR PROOF, William L. Moore, July 1985. (pages 19 and 20) which was originally presented at the 1985 Mufon Conference.



Eight Rounds and Counting

Sometime during Sept. or Oct. 1949, Newton began telling his crashed saucer stories to his close friend in Denver, George Koehler. The central theme in his story to Koehler was that a saucer had crashed in the vicinity of a high-powered radar site on the New Mexico- Arizona border, that the dead aliens were all about three feet in height, were dressed in garments made of metallic cloth, and that they wore no undergarments but rather had their bodies wrapped or taped. (These four points are important to remember: 1. High-powered radar site in Ariz.- NM; 2. 3 ft in height; 3. Metallic cloth; 4. Taped bodies). The die had been cast.

Koehler, who evidently believed Newton without question, repeated the tale during early October 1949 to a number of his friends including Morley P.Davies, a field representative for the Walter J.Thompson Co. in Denver. Davies, in turn, repeated the story to at least two of his associates, Jack M.Murphy and L.J.van Horn, who were manager and assistant manager of a local Ford Motor agency there. In mid-December Murphy and van Horn in their turn told the tale, now fourth hand, to Kansas City auto dealer Rudy Fick who was passing through Denver on his way home from Ogden, Utah. Back home in Kansas City, Fick passed along the now fifth-hand tale to the editor of the Wyandotte Echo, a weekly newspaper published in Kansas City. In the telling, the name “Koehler” had now become “Coulter”, and the number of flying saucers in possession of the U.S. Government had grown from three or four to “around fifty”, forty of which were under study “in the United States Research Bureau in Los Angeles”. The bit about the high-powered radar site on the N.M.-Ariz border remained in the story, as did the alleged three foot height of the aliens and the manner of their dress. Fick implied that “Coulter” had actually seen the disc himself.

The story, attributed to Fick, his friends in Denver, and ultimately “Coulter”, appeared in the January 6, 1950 edition of the Wyandotte Echo, and from there it was picked up by a number of other papers around the country. This attracted the interest of both the FBI & the OSI, the latter of which began investigating it as an adjunct to their case already in progress on Mikel Conrad. By early March a whole series of communications pertaining to the matter had passed between OSI headquarters in Washington DC and various field units, one of which, dated March 14, 1950 stated that Newton’s Nov.24, 1949 conversation with Cabot at the Lakeside Country Club had been witnessed by a “local KFI radio news commentator (name officially deleted) who, on a morning program, announced in effect that a party at a Hollywood country club had stated that he had information on flying discs and that the discussion took place over a round of drinks at the ’nineteenth hole’ (bar)… and that the ’story got better with each drink’”. (OSI had attempted to interview Newton at the time, but without success in that Newton had apparently gone off to Wyoming shortly thereafter).

In any case, one of the agents at OSI headquarters in Washington, passed the Fick story, now seventh-hand, along to Special Agent Guy Hottel, one of his contacts in the Washington office of the FBI (with whom OSI often worked quite closely), who in turn, on March 22, 1950, generated a memo on it to J.Edgar Hoover himself. Hottel’s memo, repeating a now eighth-hand story but still retaining the four key points of the original Newton story (i.e. high-powered radar site in New Mexico , three foot tall aliens, metallic cloth and wrapped bodies), has been cited out of context again and again by an entire array of UFO researchers as conclusive evidence that the U.S. Government is in possession of a crashed saucer. [B]Had any of them bothered to research the matter before jumping to conclusions, they would have realised the memo is essentially useless in that the origin of the information cited therein can be traced directly to Silas M.Newton himself. So that there can be no question as to which memo is referred to, it is reproduced herewith in its entirety.

(Source) (http://www.nmsr.org/hottel.htm)
And the following is from the August 1985 Mufon journal detailing proceedings at the symposium:


CRASHED SAUCERS

After an evening dinner break, the always engaging William Moore of Burbank, California, regaled the assembled audience with a talk based on two . full-length papers in the Proceedings, "Crashed Saucers: Evidence in Search of Proof," and "The Roswell Incident." Combined, they cover 50 of 180 published pages, and are well worth the price of admission alone.

Moore contrasted a legendary (and apparently fictitious) crashed saucer report which appeared in Frank Scully's "Behind the Flying Saucers" with a similar report coming out of Roswell, New Mexico, which he and Stanton Friedman have investigated extensively. Briefly, the former tale can be traced to the handiwork of a convicted con man known as Silas M. Newton, and his equally shady cohort, TED PHILLIPS the "mysterious Dr. Gee," who turned out to be, Moore is convinced, one Leo A. GeBauer. Apparently the idea grew out of Newton's oil leases, GeBauer's self-taught electrical knowledge, and an aborted Hollywood publicity campaign for a grade B science-fiction movieknown simply as "The Flying Saucer," which was touted as having real footage of a captured flying saucer.

GeBauer had developed a dubious device known as a "doodlebug," which was supposed to detect fluctuations in the earth's magnetic field and thereby signal the presence of oil, gas and other mineral deposits. Newton's somewhat imbalanced genius derived the idea of heralding the doodlebug as captured saucer technology. Scully, Moore believed, was an unwitting dupe in the scheme. More importantly, Moore added, the incident reveals how an official FBI document relating to the alleged crashed landing, after a diligent investigation, can be traced back to its fraudulent source in Newton's active imagination. In contrast, the Roswell Incident continues to hold up under scrutiny,
Granted that this was four years before Moore was essentially cut-off following the Bennewitz revelations but it doesn't detract from the credibility of the claims as they are all still verifiable.

[lux aurea in obscuro]

AdverseCamber,

Thank-you for doing me the kindness of uploading the memo, I did have a few technical glitches!

Admittedly today is the first I have heard of Silas Newton, however yesterday when I came across the memo my immediate thought being 'to good to be true'.

So I see a before me today a number of members who feel that yes radar could have a negative effect on UFO's and also that some members feel it absurd that an advance space travelling race could be effected by a simple radar system. I can understand and appreciate all of these views.

When I look at our technological advancement over these past few decades I do so under no illusion that humanity has been assisted a great deal of late. I also look at these technical marvels as still being vulnerable. With thousands of systems and circuits, with redundancy and back-ups things do still go wrong. Accidents happen be it equipment malfunctions or human error I know one thing for sure technology is still as prone to the odd breakdown as are we it's operators.

A consideration I have being maybe it's not just the craft that can be effected by radar, could it possibly be that the radar had a bad effect on the 3feet being's reportedly on board. Could it be that the craft under mental control of these beings was downed simply because ET got a real bad headache sitting in the 406Mhz radar beam? These are questions I look forward to finding the answers to.


Kind regards.

[majicbar]

"So I see a before me today a number of members who feel that yes radar could have a negative effect on UFO's and also that some members feel it absurd that an advance space travelling race could be effected by a simple radar system. I can understand and appreciate all of these views."

"Simple radar system"?, I suggest some further reading on RADAR systems, (RADAR is in caps because it is an acronym). Radar is complex and very involved once one gets into circular and elliptical polarizations, which is why I think it was a watershed for the alien UFOs.



http://www.radartutorial.eu/06.antennas/an06.en.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarization_(waves)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar

http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/polarization.cfm

[lux aurea in obscuro]

Hi Majicbar,


Many thanks for your suggested reading menu. The "Simple radar system" I make reference to simple from an alien perspective not that of our own.

I believe the ability to manipulate frequencies is the ability to manipulate matter in a number of ways and is far from simple. Majicbar please report to the 'transporter room' feeling that modulating and manipulating frequencies are key to a number of devices we see on TV. Tractor beams and transporters could be utilised with the manipulation of frequencies? I say that simply because of the effects of acoustic levitation.

I find the effects of frequency manipulation a fascinating subject in fact I enjoy nothing more than the discovery of resonating points. I have been known to create the odd earthquake in some of the large council blocks I have lived in with my killer sound system, some of my friends still refer to me as Dr Bass. Unfolding a wave of bass in a small flat and being able to target unpleasant local neighbours was a speciality of mine. You would be unable to hear anything yet several doors down I had people believing they had a haunted house as things were moving around seemingly of their own accord. Please don't get the wrong impression I at the time were doing a civic service as living in Europe's largest housing estate came with it's own problems when dealing with the unsavoury members of the community.

Like the range of a RADAR tuning in low bass frequency to resonate a particular location a number of flats away took some time to master. The effect's of 4x15" bass drivers 2x12" and two normal pairs of speakers in a 8x10foot room are a wonder to behold when paired with 2 EQ's and an effect's chamber with echo, attack etc and the correct amplification.

Kind regards.

[Marvin]

"So I see a before me today a number of members who feel that yes radar could have a negative effect on UFO's and also that some members feel it absurd that an advance space travelling race could be effected by a simple radar system. I can understand and appreciate all of these views."

"Simple radar system"?, I suggest some further reading on RADAR systems, (RADAR is in caps because it is an acronym). Radar is complex and very involved once one gets into circular and elliptical polarizations, which is why I think it was a watershed for the alien UFOs.



http://www.radartutorial.eu/06.antennas/an06.en.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarization_(waves)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar

http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/polarization.cfm



Radiation along the electromagnetic scale is common in space (which include radio and microwaves). In fact, we learn more about the universe around us via radio/microwave than through optical telescopes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_Large_Array

After traveling through this type of radiation to arrive on Earth, why are radio/microwaves a deadly threat on earth but not in space? Radar does not "hold a candle" when compared to the output of a star (among other sources).

[lux aurea in obscuro]

Hi Marvin,


Thanks and I of course agree regarding the risks of interstellar travel and those beings having constant bombardments. However could it be only a particular frequency has a negative effect? Us humans are sensitive to a frequency of around 7Hz the 'brown note'. Enjoying subsonic and infrasonic bass I know that all is well until that real low note hits. People have a tendency to make a big mess at that frequency if the right amount of gain/volume is applied.

So you can maybe appreciate that yes most frequencies are harmless yet all biological matter has a resonating point which if applied a big mess will ensure. I am sure these beings also have a resonating point I would guess a much higher one than humans? Could it be that a particular narrow band of frequency a very specific frequency could have a negative effect on ET.

Slightly off topic yet relating to ET's choice of clothing. The bodies discovered on board the crashed craft have often been described as having on a "thin metallic like cloth". Could this be to protect the beings from radiation? If yes it would imply that without the protective suits they may well be effected by environmental conditions.

Kind regards.

[majicbar]

"After traveling through this type of radiation to arrive on Earth, why are radio/microwaves a deadly threat on earth but not in space? Radar does not "hold a candle" when compared to the output of a star (among other sources)."

Because the microwaves are not used for interstellar travel, there is no atmosphere. Once in the Earth's atmosphere the microwaves are used in the UFO's flight mechanism to control the air for lift, aeromotive thrust and reduction of air resistance. Presumably where the UFOs normally go there is not a technology where microwaves are used for surveillance, so interference is not an issue.

[Marvin]

Because the microwaves are not used for interstellar travel, there is no atmosphere. Once in the Earth's atmosphere the microwaves are used in the UFO's flight mechanism to control the air for lift, aeromotive thrust and reduction of air resistance. Presumably where the UFOs normally go there is not a technology where microwaves are used for surveillance, so interference is not an issue.


To take this stance, one would have to assume that microwaves from space cannot reach the surface of the Earth… if true, then these are very large and expensive paperweights.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/USA.NM.VeryLargeArray.02.jpg

[Marvin]

Hi Marvin,

So you can maybe appreciate that yes most frequencies are harmless yet all biological matter has a resonating point which if applied a big mess will ensure. I am sure these beings also have a resonating point I would guess a much higher one than humans? Could it be that a particular narrow band of frequency a very specific frequency could have a negative effect on ET.

Kind regards.


Since I have never seen an Alien propulsion device, I have no idea how it works or if frequencies of microwaves would cause a problem. I can only venture an opinion… if they know about the dangers of radio/microwaves and do not build in any protection from them, then they’re not to bright.


M

[lux aurea in obscuro]

Magicbar,

Thanks for that! Your proposition sit's well with me here just now, and I like the idea of only employing microwave propulsion systems on Earth. I have been of the opinon now that a number of systems would be employed situation dependant.

Marvin... LoL whatever your on I want some & one of those paperweights too!

While of the subject of frequencies I see the mention of crystals in a number of threads and just today on the way home the bus stopped outside a charity shop, they had a display of crystals in a cabinet by the window. I understand crystals being used in radios a many years ago what I saw today with the sun gleaming down on the cabinet a wonderful light show. The crystals sperating the differing specturms of light which was not only a treat but an eye opener.

Kind regards.

[majicbar]

"Since I have never seen an Alien propulsion device, I have no idea how it works or if frequencies of microwaves would cause a problem. I can only venture an opinion… if they know about the dangers of radio/microwaves and do not build in any protection from them, then they’re not to bright."

Marvin do not forget that the microwaves strengths are subject to the inverse square law so lower power microwaves over a short distance will have have proportionally equal effect to larger power at a greater distance. Only microwaves from large sources such as employed by our military radars would have been a threat to a microwave propulsion system. Faced with the unique technology of our primitive and insane cold war environment the aliens could have fallen into a consideration of the "Drake equation": For what period of time is a civilization likely to be using high power microwaves in military surveillance radars blanketing regional areas of a planet. I would venture that it is an unlikely occurrence so they would not likely have anticipated it.

[Marvin]

"Since I have never seen an Alien propulsion device, I have no idea how it works or if frequencies of microwaves would cause a problem. I can only venture an opinion… if they know about the dangers of radio/microwaves and do not build in any protection from them, then they’re not to bright."

Marvin do not forget that the microwaves strengths are subject to the inverse square law so lower power microwaves over a short distance will have have proportionally equal effect to larger power at a greater distance. Only microwaves from large sources such as employed by our military radars would have been a threat to a microwave propulsion system. Faced with the unique technology of our primitive and insane cold war environment the aliens could have fallen into a consideration of the "Drake equation": For what period of time is a civilization likely to be using high power microwaves in military surveillance radars blanketing regional areas of a planet. I would venture that it is an unlikely occurrence so they would not likely have anticipated it.


Are you trying to hint you are an insider of an alien technology… if so, please share.

If not, it is a nice story that makes advanced aliens look fairly stupid for not being prepared to deal with microwaves in an atmosphere (especially with the relatively primitive radar of 1947). If microwaves are an issue, they are going to miss out on a lot of the universe.

Here is evidence that planetary bodies emit natural microwave radiation (apparently a hazard for alien flight):

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19790008600_1979008600.pdf

http://mwrf.com/content/microwave-signatures-pinpoint-water-jupiter

[lux aurea in obscuro]

Hi Marvin,

RADAR has no emotions it just works, so these advance aliens are maybe well aware of our primative technology. They probably did not consider the notion that when 'blips' pop up on the scope an engineer will adjust parameters accordingly. Maybe even with the deliberate intention of downing a real advance alien craft, us human beings can be a bit crafty like 'no?'. Put it this way what Chuck Norris could do with a paper cup and turn it into a killing machine of mass destruction your going to tell me a furry freak like me would not be tempted to turn up the vibes on the array?

Hey please give Majicbar a break it should be completey obvious by now that he/she/it is indeed or at least was Scotty from the USS Enterprise. Now currently assigned as a super specialist propultion engineer! On a more serious note... If it were not for these notions would man have even made such a "small step". Me say let's keep good idea flowing.

Kind regards.

[AdverseCamber]

Are you trying to hint you are an insider of an alien technology… if so, please share.

If not, it is a nice story that makes advanced aliens look fairly stupid for not being prepared to deal with microwaves in an atmosphere (especially with the relatively primitive radar of 1947). If microwaves are an issue, they are going to miss out on a lot of the universe.

Here is evidence that planetary bodies emit natural microwave radiation (apparently a hazard for alien flight):

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19790008600_1979008600.pdf

http://mwrf.com/content/microwave-signatures-pinpoint-water-jupiter

I agree Marvin, from the thread that started this:




<snip>

However if this is the scenario you’re suggesting then I believe it’s absurd to think a race capable of creating spaceships that can travel at or around the speed of light yet still manage to avoid the many asteroid belts, debris & space junk would be foiled by relatively simplistic earth radar.

<snip>

[majicbar]

Marvin, thanks for the sources. They have helped me refine my thoughts, but they do not make your point.

The sources to which you point are primarily concerned with the heat of the atmosphere of Saturn which can be expressed also as microwave energy. The points to which the sources you sight are the transmission of radio waves through this microwave background and the observation of the planet through this microwave background. So indeed I agree there is a situation with microwaves that exists on some other planets, especially the gas giants. I'll access that in a bit.

My point is that cold war military radars used very powerful microwave radar to surveil the sky for enemy aircraft and help track our own aircraft and missiles, these radars had just added circular and elliptical polarizations in 1947 which would have passed through the atmosphere and influenced the atmosphere within which the UFO would be flying.

So the debate then would devolve to what is the difference.

In the case of military radar the microwaves would cause a constantly changing spin and disorient of the molecules in the atmosphere, which by the observation of some UFOs, lead to disruption of their ability to fly.

In the case of the gas giant planets with the hot atmospheres, although filled with microwave radiation, these microwaves act as a black body and are oriented either omnidirectional, or, by the magnetic fields, in a constant polarization. This would not cause any degradation of flight, as the flight regime would be predictable and easily adjusted for.

The UFO would be using microwaves over only a short distance of 10 to 30 meters, again the inverse square law would apply and despite the background microwave, only influencing that immediate control area would be necessary to provide lift and locomotion, although control would depend on the local polarization of the atmosphere in the immediate vicinity of the UFO. UFOs can fly in microwave environments if they can only influence the atmosphere to a greater extent over that short distance and that they have a predictable and controllable polarization of the atmosphere.

And, no, I am not, my knowledge is speculative but informed: it is based on the long history of UFO reports and a good understanding of physics , and having seen several craft I know that they are out there, I'm only trying to understand what I've seen.

[AdverseCamber]

<snip>

And, no, I am not, my knowledge is speculative but informed: it is based on the long history of UFO reports and a good understanding of physics , and having seen several craft I know that they are out there, I'm only trying to understand what I've seen.
So applying the same logic what about all of the unknowns that have been spotted on radar?

If there was a radar return then the microwaves hit the object and scattered, why didn’t these UFOs fail?

Operation Charlie instantly springs to mind as this occurred in 1947 when the UK’s east coast radar defences were triggered several times by mysterious intrusions. RAF interceptors were launched and picked up the UFOs on airborne radar too, but that was as close as they ever got.

Why didn’t those UFOs suffer from what could be considered a multiple radar ‘attack’?

[majicbar]

So applying the same logic what about all of the unknowns that have been spotted on radar?

If there was a radar return then the microwaves hit the object and scattered, why didn’t these UFOs fail?

Operation Charlie instantly springs to mind as this occurred in 1947 when the UK’s east coast radar defences were triggered several times by mysterious intrusions. RAF interceptors were launched and picked up the UFOs on airborne radar too, but that was as close as they ever got.

Why didn’t those UFOs suffer from what could be considered a multiple radar ‘attack’?

Not all UFOs originate from the same planet, many planets have sent UFOs to Earth. Not all UFOs use a microwave flight system, more advanced UFOs would have access to more advanced technologies and base flight systems on any number of physical phenomena. I've never said all UFOs use this principle, only some. After the debacle of the 1947 crashes they would have tried to correct this fault of the microwave system and by the mid 50's the falling leaf effect largely disappears form UFO reports, which to my mind indicates the problem was fixed. Again, without full access to the USAF reports it would be hard to fully understand what facts really apply here.

[AdverseCamber]

Not all UFOs originate from the same planet, many planets have sent UFOs to Earth. Not all UFOs use a microwave flight system, more advanced UFOs would have access to more advanced technologies and base flight systems on any number of physical phenomena. I've never said all UFOs use this principle, only some. After the debacle of the 1947 crashes they would have tried to correct this fault of the microwave system and by the mid 50's the falling leaf effect largely disappears form UFO reports, which to my mind indicates the problem was fixed. Again, without full access to the USAF reports it would be hard to fully understand what facts really apply here.
Fair enough, but it’s no different to me saying you’re wrong as they only come from one planet. Or that they crashed because they hit a moth, speculation presented as fact isn’t really my thing though…

[lux aurea in obscuro]

good morning,

I see before me a most fruitful debate having raised excellent points, I especially like the mention of cosmic microwave radiation. In fact I was once under the assumption that these cosmic fields of energy could have powered propulsion systems.

"Not all UFO's originate from the same planet, many planets have sent UFO's to Earth". Majicbar if your able to elaborate further that would be ace?

I now wonder as in our current timeline of technical innovation will we again in future develop technology what again could have an negative effect on UFO's. I see major advancement in military hardware... All this talk of UFO's being effected by radar has me wondering about USO's possibly being effected by sonar, could that account for craft reportedly diving into the sea?

I will now search for any reported incidents of USO's being caught on sonar, as I have never seen one and find that hard to believe.

Kind regards.

[majicbar]

"Not all UFOs originate from the same planet, many planets have sent UFOs to Earth". Majicbar if your able to elaborate further.."

Evidence of such is from reported observations of close encounters of the forth kind and reports of abductees on alien types. It is unlikely that more than one species would emerge as the dominant one on any one planet, thus it is likely that for each main type of alien there is one planet involved. I would place this at seven, or more, although the use of droids might pare that back to around five, or more. The different types of UFOs can't be taken as they may have evolved over time and one alien race might be using more than one type, and some UFOs might be motherships for the other types, but again this would tend to say many planets as origins of the UFOs.


Your sonar inquiry, this is the most prominent:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shag_Harbour_UFO_incident

While the official story of the incident ends here, further evidence
attributed to various military and civilian witnesses might imply a
highly secretive military search involving a small flotilla of Royal
Canadian Navy and United States Navy ships about 50 km (31 mi)
northeast of Shag Harbour near Shelburne (see map above), site of HMCS
Shelburne, a top secret submarine detection base jointly operated by
both navies as part of the Integrated Undersea Surveillance System
(IUSS).

According to one military witness, he was allegedly briefed that the
object had originally been picked up on radar coming out of Siberia.
After crashing in Shag Harbour, it traveled underwater up the coast
and came to rest on top of a submarine magnetic detection grid
reportedly located off Shelburne, where it was supposedly joined by a
second vehicle. Navy ships were allegedly anchored off HMCS
Shelburne's facilities at Government Point for a week, according to
the witnesses, in an attempt to recover the object. [1] A barge was
said to have been brought in from the United States to assist in the
recovery, as reported by another military witness. Regional newspaper
stories did mention a barge with "atomic furnaces" being brought to
the government wharf at Shelburne Harbour on October 6 for emergency
repair, theorized by some as a cover story to explain its presence
there. [2]

One American diver, known only as "Harry" in the book Dark Object by
Styles and Ledger, stated that the object wasn't from planet Earth.
"Harry" claimed photographs were taken by the divers and some
foam-like debris brought up. [3] Another military witness claimed that
there were actually two objects, one perhaps trying to assist the
other. The naval search was suddenly called off on October 11. That
night, a seemingly identical UFO was reported departing the area by
witnesses near the original Shag Harbour crash site.

The most recent History Channel documentary about the incident, which
aired on August 10, 2006, also reported that one of the divers
involved in the Shag Harbour search did come forward during the
mid-1990s, refusing to allow his identity to become known publicly.
Once the researchers verified that the man in fact had served as a
diver during that search, he recounted his version of what had
happened at Shag Harbour.

In this recounting, by the time the divers reached Shag Harbour, they
already knew that nothing would be found there, because the target had
already been located off the coast at Shelburne. He went on to further
say that the Royal Canadian Navy and Royal Canadian Air Force as well
as the United States Air Force and United States Navy monitored the
"unknown objects" by radar and sonar, and that the objects were
underwater. This monitoring continued for at least three days, until a
Soviet Navy submarine was detected entering Canadian waters northeast
of Nova Scotia. With that, the navy ships departed to intercept the
submarine, and by the time they had returned, the "unknown objects"
had evidently departed.

However, unlike the event at Shag Harbour, no official documentation
or confirmation has yet emerged to support witness stories of a second
search near Shelburne. There has been nothing to substantiate the
diver's claims, with the exception of archived records that indicate a
substantial amount of search and monitor activity in the Shelburne
area during that 10 day period.

[murmur]

great stuff

[lux aurea in obscuro]

Good morning,

Once again Majicbar please except my thanks on a rather remarkable reply. Those close encounters of the forth kind gave you the idea we are being visited by a number of different ET's from different worlds. I also share your take on that particular situation and in a way should we be grateful? The film the '4th kind' @ 3:33 in the morning as the officers patrol car films a craft over the home, I can assume those early morning visitors are the type we really don't want to encounter. So we have bad ET's and we have good ET's I only wish I had a better idea of who is on what side.

I had no idea about the Shelburne incident and I find your attached information of much interest I will now go and have a peek. I do however find this of importance in relation to the topic of debate:

"He went on to further say that the Royal Canadian Navy and Royal Canadian Air Force as well as the United States Air Force and United States Navy monitored the "unknown objects" by radar and sonar, and that the objects were underwater."

This indicates to me that the craft/s were tracked by radar until they ditched into the sea around Shag Harbour. I should imagine at this point members will jump all over me demanding the elusive evidence... yet is the fact a "small flotilla" were despatched and on site for a number of day's searching until the Ruskies joined the party not conclusive enough to prove they spotted something on the scopes?

Also that "came to rest on top of a submarine magnetic detection grid" I wonder why it would do that? I better go and have a sniff about.


Kind regards.

[Marvin]

Marvin, thanks for the sources. They have helped me refine my thoughts, but they do not make your point.





My point is... all of the "Gas Giants" give off radio/microwaves. Radio/microwaves have been detected from Mercury and Venus. The energy detected from these sources is logarithmically greater than 1947 radar. That would only leave two planets for the aliens to visit… Earth and Mars. Earth did not work out too well for them… which only leaves Mars as a planet to explore, and we are to believe an advanced race of aliens who transversed light years of space (and have experienced all of these issues and more along the way) came to a solar system and can only safely visit one planet.

You are welcome to your opinion.

[majicbar]

My point is... all of the "Gas Giants" give off radio/microwaves. Radio/microwaves have been detected from Mercury and Venus. The energy detected from these sources is logarithmically greater than 1947 radar. That would only leave two planets for the aliens to visit… Earth and Mars. Earth did not work out too well for them… which only leaves Mars as a planet to explore, and we are to believe an advanced race of aliens who transversed light years of space (and have experienced all of these issues and more along the way) came to a solar system and can only safely visit one planet.

You are welcome to your opinion.
Marvin, you have in my opinion failed to grasp the importance of the microwaves having omnidirectional black-body properties, even when the overall microwave environment is very high on these other planets with atmospheres. The UFO flight system that I talk about here is only needing to affect that atmosphere locally and only to polarize it to the degree necessary to provide the aeromotive force. Again, by the inverse square rule, the local environment of the UFO even when faced with an environment of high heat microwaves only need be effective within 30 meters at the most. Another point is that the sources you sight indicate that at those levels the atmosphere becomes opaque. The UFO therefore once it establishes its local flight environment should no longer be subject to those microwaves and would establish a boundary layer between it's flight envelope and the microwaves of the atmosphere. That is, in my opinion and given a knowledge of aerodynamics.

[Marvin]

Marvin, you have in my opinion failed to grasp the importance of the microwaves having omnidirectional black-body properties...



That explains it, since "omnidirectional black-body properties" are a material property and not a radiant energy (microwave) property.

Have a great one!


M

[Dragonfire]

"Not all UFOs originate from the same planet, many planets have sent UFOs to Earth". Majicbar if your able to elaborate further.."

Evidence of such is from reported observations of close encounters of the forth kind and reports of abductees on alien types. It is unlikely that more than one species would emerge as the dominant one on any one planet, thus it is likely that for each main type of alien there is one planet involved. I would place this at seven, or more, although the use of droids might pare that back to around five, or more. The different types of UFOs can't be taken as they may have evolved over time and one alien race might be using more than one type, and some UFOs might be motherships for the other types, but again this would tend to say many planets as origins of the UFOs.

From your previous post, accordingly there are more than 7. BELOW IS AN A-Z OF ALL ALIEN SPECIES
KNOWN TO MAN AT PRESENT ( Not saying this list is complete or a complete fabrication. Just found it at
http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicspecies2.htm I should mention there is a description of each species at this site.

AGHARIANS - (or Aghartians)
ALPHA-DRACONIANS
ALTAIRIANS
AMPHIBIANS
ANAKIM, THE (also referred to the 'Els', short for 'Elder Race' or simply as the 'Giants').
ANTARCTICAN ATLANS
BERNARIANS
BOOTEANS
BURROWERS
CETIANS - (or Tau Cetians)
CHAMELEON
CHUPACABRA
DRACO-BORGS
DRAGONWORMS
DWARFS
EVA-BORGS
GIZAN - (or Gizahn)
GRAILS
GREENS, THE
GREYS, THE
GYPSIES
HAV-MUSUVS - (or Suvians)
HU-BRID
HYADEANS
HYBRIDS
IGUANOIDS
IKELS OR SATYRS
INSIDERS
JANOSIAN
KORENDIAN
LEVIATHANS
LYRAN
MARTIANS
MIB'S
MOON-EYES, THE
MOTHMEN
NAGAS
ORANGE, THE
ORIONS
PHOENIANS
PLEIADEANS
RE-BRID
RETICULANS
SASQUATCH
SERPENTS
SIRIANS
SOLARIANS
SYNTHETICS
TELOSIAN
TEROS
ULTERRANS - (or Ultraterrestrials)
UMMITES
VEGANS
VENUSIAN

There is also another list at http://pagli.tripod.com/marz.html

[Dragonfire]

Alien Species, this may call for a whole new thread........

[AdverseCamber]

From your previous post, accordingly there are more than 7. BELOW IS AN A-Z OF ALL ALIEN SPECIES
KNOWN TO MAN AT PRESENT ( Not saying this list is complete or a complete fabrication. Just found it at
http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicspecies2.htm I should mention there is a description of each species at this site.

<snip>

VEGANS

<snip>

Hey what are the chances, I know a couple of them!!

Hmm, I wonder if I should mention it or if there’s a special handshake or something…

[lux aurea in obscuro]

Hey what are the chances, I know a couple of them!!

Hmm, I wonder if I should mention it or if there’s a special handshake or something…

Good Morning,

I also noticed on the list "GYPSIES "

Now I am concerned is everybody in the UK from eastern Europe an alien... well illegal possibly?

AdverseCamber you should know better "special handshake" and I spose they "put everything back the way they found it", no these super advance "Gypsies" make contact by rummaging around in your pockets so that such a handshake is impossible document.

Kind Regards.

[norenrad]

Now I am concerned is everybody in the UK from eastern Europe an alien... well illegal possibly?

Spend some time in Colorado, I'm beginning to suspect that more than a few Coloradoans are from another planet.

[AdverseCamber]

Good Morning,

I also noticed on the list "GYPSIES "

<snip>

AdverseCamber you should know better "special handshake" and I spose they "put everything back the way they found it", no these super advance "Gypsies" make contact by rummaging around in your pockets so that such a handshake is impossible document.

Kind Regards.Nah, now you’re just being silly.

Because if that really were the case then we’d literally be inundated with ‘physical case traces’…


http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/s474/Adverse_Camber_forums/gypsies_ptc.jpg

Wouldn’t we?

[Dragonfire]

There is a new thread in ExoPolitics for Alien Species. Eash has a description. Now where did I put my.............

[AdverseCamber]

There is a new thread in ExoPolitics for Alien Species. Eash has a description. Now where did I put my.............

Waders?

[newyorklily]

The FBI has attempted to explain the "Hottel" memo: http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2013/march/ufos-and-the-guy-hottel-memo/ufos-and-the-guy-hottel-memo

In a blog written March 25, 2013, the FBI writes (bottom of page):


So what’s the real story? A few facts to keep in mind:
First, the Hottel memo isn’t new. It was first released publicly in the late 1970s and had been posted on the FBI website for several years prior to the launch of the Vault.

Second, the Hottel memo is dated nearly three years after the infamous events in Roswell in July 1947. There is no reason to believe the two are connected. The FBI file on Roswell (another popular page) is posted elsewhere on the Vault. (http://vault.fbi.gov/Roswell%20UFO)

Third, as noted in an earlier story (http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/april/ufos_040610), the FBI has only occasionally been involved in investigating reports of UFOs and extraterrestrials. For a few years after the Roswell incident, Director Hoover did order his agents—at the request of the Air Force—to verify any UFO sightings. That practice ended in July 1950, four months after the Hottel memo, suggesting that our Washington Field Office didn’t think enough of that flying saucer story to look into it.

Finally, the Hottel memo does not prove the existence of UFOs; it is simply a second- or third-hand claim that we never investigated. Some people believe the memo repeats a hoax that was circulating at that time, but the Bureau’s files have no information to verify that theory.
Sorry, no smoking gun on UFOs. The mystery remains…

[Dragonfire]

Marvin made a post for the Guy Hottel Memo here: http://www.theoutpostforum.com/tof/showthread.php?1216-Things-that-make-you-say-Hmmmmm&p=21158#post21158