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Thread: Lucid Dreaming, and the practice behind it.

  1. #21
    Senior Member atmjjc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calikid View Post
    Fully asleep, until I was aware that I was waking up, and it felt like I was watching the guy at the desk (my dream self) shuffling papers, from an elevated vantage point. I also "knew" the guy shuffling papers was totally unaware of me watching him. Confusing to explain

    "bi-location event", maybe. Not sure how it could be proven?

    I've never heard of anyone falling asleep and immediately (within 5 minutes) enter a dream state. Seemed unusual.
    The awake dreaming is quite common and is referred to in colloquial language as a ‘waking dream’ or ‘daydreaming’. The hallucinations as they are sometimes referred to are usually noted as a sensory miss cue of perception and categorized as hypnogogic (hypnogogia) and hypnopompic (hypnopompia) hallucinations in a waking sleep state +/- entering/leaving rem states.

    My research done with one of the mystery schools who financed it back in the 70’s, drifted to what we referred to at the time as Bi-Location/astral projection in lucid states of consciousness. Something to what Edward was referring to in his perceptions of his events. Similar to what the government referred to as Remote Viewing. Our research went much further than what the government was doing. We actually were looking to split the consciousness to a rational state by using vibration techniques to dislodge it into the finer body with rational consciousness and to transfer it to different locations in 3D space within the fabric of the finer body.
    We control matter because we control the mind. Reality is inside the skull.
    ~ George Orwell ‘1984’

  2. #22
    Lead Moderator calikid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atmjjc View Post
    The awake dreaming is quite common and is referred to in colloquial language as a ‘waking dream’ or ‘daydreaming’. The hallucinations as they are sometimes referred to are usually noted as a sensory miss cue of perception and categorized as hypnogogic (hypnogogia) and hypnopompic (hypnopompia) hallucinations in a waking sleep state +/- entering/leaving rem states.

    My research done with one of the mystery schools who financed it back in the 70’s, drifted to what we referred to at the time as Bi-Location/astral projection in lucid states of consciousness. Something to what Edward was referring to in his perceptions of his events. Similar to what the government referred to as Remote Viewing. Our research went much further than what the government was doing. We actually were looking to split the consciousness to a rational state by using vibration techniques to dislodge it into the finer body with rational consciousness and to transfer it to different locations in 3D space within the fabric of the finer body.
    Did a bit of reading on the hypnopompic (transition from sleep to wakefulness) state.
    The concept of "sleep inertia" was interesting.
    Part of my recent experience was an urgency to return to the dream, due to a feeling of important unfinished business.
    That could equate to one of the sleep inertia symptoms... "the tendency of a person wanting to return to sleep."

    My whole life I've always awaken instantly, and fully aware.
    Like an animal ready to fight or flee.
    So this gradual transition is something of a new experience for me.

    Think I mentioned before, some years ago I tried Castaneda's suggestion of "focusing on your hands during dreaming, to induce a lucid state".
    Each time I tried, the second I saw my hands in my dream and realized I was dreaming, I would instantly awaken. Eventually gave up.
    Up until now, seems my brain is binary. Awake or asleep. Not much middle ground.
    The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
    progress. -- Joseph Joubert
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  3. #23
    Lead Moderator calikid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atmjjc View Post
    The awake dreaming is quite common and is referred to in colloquial language as a ‘waking dream’ or ‘daydreaming’. The hallucinations as they are sometimes referred to are usually noted as a sensory miss cue of perception and categorized as hypnogogic (hypnogogia) and hypnopompic (hypnopompia) hallucinations in a waking sleep state +/- entering/leaving rem states.

    My research done with one of the mystery schools who financed it back in the 70’s, drifted to what we referred to at the time as Bi-Location/astral projection in lucid states of consciousness. Something to what Edward was referring to in his perceptions of his events. Similar to what the government referred to as Remote Viewing. Our research went much further than what the government was doing. We actually were looking to split the consciousness to a rational state by using vibration techniques to dislodge it into the finer body with rational consciousness and to transfer it to different locations in 3D space within the fabric of the finer body.
    Decided to split this response into two parts (my personal experience posted above, and details of your experiences here).
    I have heard of:
    Bi-Location/astral projection
    lucid states of consciousness
    and Remote Viewing

    But part of what you describe includes terms I am unfamiliar with:
    Vibration techniques?
    Finer body?

    I get you were going for an altered lucid state of mind, that can be directed to non-local landscapes.
    Just not sure about the terms, maybe you could share some details about protocols, goals, and results?
    The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
    progress. -- Joseph Joubert
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  4. #24
    Senior Member atmjjc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calikid View Post
    Decided to split this response into two parts (my personal experience posted above, and details of your experiences here).
    I have heard of:
    Bi-Location/astral projection
    lucid states of consciousness
    and Remote Viewing

    But part of what you describe includes terms I am unfamiliar with:
    Vibration techniques?
    Finer body?

    I get you were going for an altered lucid state of mind, that can be directed to non-local landscapes.
    Just not sure about the terms, maybe you could share some details about protocols, goals, and results?
    The particular time I am talking about we started to experiment mostly in what is called the ‘ganzfeld effect’. We dropped the strictly scientific approach as to publish papers because we seen the difficulty with strict protocols. We were looking for results. Science be damned it just got in the way.

    The people I worked with were basically lived in different countries the UK, France, and U.S. I was located at the head of the spear in Cyprus with the Brits. The results varied depending on what techniques were used. In some circumstances we succeeded and others we failed miserably.

    You appear, if I am not mistaken, to be looking at hemi-sync technology. I would suggest b4 you get too involved you build up the ‘synaptic plasticity’ of your ‘neurotransmitter receptors’. You can do this simply just by wanting to project your consciousness b4 you go to sleep or you start daydreaming. Your neuropath ways will do the rest all by themselves. It will take a few weeks but you will get a better response than just jumping in. Either way might work.

    You will know what finer body is once you cracked your egg. It appears to be a consciousness response of familiarity of your physical body and a survival response action of unfamiliarity. If you fall into a dream you are not there yet.

    Once you start nibbling at your egg you will feel your physical body start to vibrate. Once you consciously acknowledge this as it is happening the vibrations will increase. It might scare you but it is the beginning of hatching into the universe. It is physiologically harmless but it will enlighten you once you nibble enough to emerge. Hemi-sync music is a way to stimulate the vibrations, also white noise preferably with ganzfeld.

    atmjjc
    We control matter because we control the mind. Reality is inside the skull.
    ~ George Orwell ‘1984’

  5. #25
    Lead Moderator calikid's Avatar
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    Ganzfeld effect? Using Sensory Deprivation, as in the movie "Altered States" or more recently in the TV Series "Fringe", to induce (for lack of a better word) hallucinations?

    Hemi Sync? As in synchronizing the left & right brain hemispheres?
    I've always been a left brain person. Analytical, critical, logical, mathematical.
    Other than music (a global brain activity), I lack a great deal in creativity & artistry. Something I can recognize & appreciate in others.
    Awakening the right hemisphere sounds like a herculean task, maybe easy for others, but I have doubts.

    As for the egg & vibrations, etc you explain. Probably need to read it a couple of times, first blush it is hard to follow. I'm guessing it is probably easier to experience than grasp as a concept. But thanks for sharing, appreciate the exposure to new ideas.

    I see some sites recommend using a mask to cover the eyes, along with white noise (or Binaual beats) to induce sensory deprivation.
    Reminds me of seeing a mask some years ago that flashed red lights (embedded in the mask) during REM to clue in the sleeping subject that it was time to become "lucid" during likely dream sequences.
    I realize they have two different methodologies, one is used while awake, the other while sleeping. Just wondered if you have used either method?

    You mentioned the program you were involved with disregarded science in favor of results.
    From your description, is it fair to say the ultimate goal was "Remote Viewing"?
    Sry, trying to parse some of your descriptions, baby steps. "...consciousness and to transfer it to different locations..."
    Any spectacular success stories from "back in the day" you can share with us?
    The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
    progress. -- Joseph Joubert
    Attachment 1008

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Edward View Post
    I have had similar experiences. Let me ask you when you were "dreaming" did you have a sense you were not fully asleep but you can tell that you are almost asleep? If so the images you may be seeing is not a dream at all but something else entirely different. I myself have postulated what I was seeing was perhaps me on another level of existence or parallel world. Or even perhaps some sort of bi-location event. You may even have been on the spirit/astral realm. However, you may have entered the deep stages of dreaming very quickly if you mind and body was that tired.

    Edward
    I think your posit is a more apt description than that of Don Juan Matus but the same essentially. We are who we are across the multiverse. In lucid dreams we just have a shared consciousness or a brief linkage of said selves. We are not carbon copies and can vary little to vastly, yet I know it is me. There is a strangeness of continuity, to say the least, but over the years I have become used to this.

    Night before last I had a common dream occurrence. It wasn't the dream but the other people in the dream. I am interacting with some as if I know them well. thing is I have a keen memory for faces, even of people I have just passed on a street and see them again months later. Those in the dreams, I have never seen before.

    Interesting discussion! One thing I'd like to hear more of is not necessarily the dreams them selves but the oddities that are experienced. Setting, ambiance ect.. In other words have any of you tried to detach yourselves from the focal point and looked around?

  7. #27
    Senior Member atmjjc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calikid View Post

    <snip>

    ... I see some sites recommend using a mask to cover the eyes, along with white noise (or Binaual beats) to induce sensory deprivation.
    Reminds me of seeing a mask some years ago that flashed red lights (embedded in the mask) during REM to clue in the sleeping subject that it was time to become "lucid" during likely dream sequences.
    I realize they have two different methodologies, one is used while awake, the other while sleeping. Just wondered if you have used either method?

    You mentioned the program you were involved with disregarded science in favor of results.
    From your description, is it fair to say the ultimate goal was "Remote Viewing"?
    Sry, trying to parse some of your descriptions, baby steps. "...consciousness and to transfer it to different locations..."
    Any spectacular success stories from "back in the day" you can share with us?
    Yes most of our studies were centered on neural entrainment with acoustic stimuli, even a form of gong meditation coupled with startle reflex were used. On the opposite side of the barrier so to speak, the ganzfeld method with isolation tanks showed somewhat promising. In some cases drugs were also used.

    Do to what would be considered poor statistical results in which the top range would be 60% hits with episodic results signified to us poor methodology. An indication of a hit would be considered a positive observation of the significant target value.

    Even with the best results science would strongly argue ‘Subjective Validation’ or the Barnum/Forer effect.

    To go beyond looking for scientific proof in RV or Bi-location it should be strikingly obvious that there is something going on. Anybody with an open mind realizes this and most of us whoever had a lucid dream knows this. To have subjective control of this is another matter which must be utilized to full potential. You must be the judge of your own subjective mind to see what works for you. To the explorer in you…go at it. The curiosity most of us share is what makes humankind stand out in the universe.

    atmjjc
    We control matter because we control the mind. Reality is inside the skull.
    ~ George Orwell ‘1984’

  8. #28
    Lead Moderator calikid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atmjjc View Post
    Yes most of our studies were centered on neural entrainment with acoustic stimuli, even a form of gong meditation coupled with startle reflex were used. On the opposite side of the barrier so to speak, the ganzfeld method with isolation tanks showed somewhat promising. In some cases drugs were also used.

    Do to what would be considered poor statistical results in which the top range would be 60% hits with episodic results signified to us poor methodology. An indication of a hit would be considered a positive observation of the significant target value.

    Even with the best results science would strongly argue ‘Subjective Validation’ or the Barnum/Forer effect.

    To go beyond looking for scientific proof in RV or Bi-location it should be strikingly obvious that there is something going on. Anybody with an open mind realizes this and most of us whoever had a lucid dream knows this. To have subjective control of this is another matter which must be utilized to full potential. You must be the judge of your own subjective mind to see what works for you. To the explorer in you…go at it. The curiosity most of us share is what makes humankind stand out in the universe.

    atmjjc
    It is certainly an interesting phenomenon.
    But the problem I have is that even if we achieve Lucid Dreaming (a skill I have difficulty with), the next step almost seems a leap of faith.
    Is this dream state a true dimension to be explored?
    Perhaps a reflection of physical reality (Bi-location/R.V.)?
    Or is it simply the result of a rich imagination bordering on delusion.
    I do not know.

    The only empirical proof would be the scientific results you discount. Not condemning you.
    Just an observation that while interesting to research, it is difficult for me to reach a conclusion.
    The best I can do is keep an open mind, and attempt to replicate what other have shared.
    So far, I have had VIVID dreams that seem very real, but non-the-less can be identified as dreams.
    While the more difficult skill of LUCID dreaming still eludes me.
    Perhaps if I ever achieve LUCID dreaming (AFAIK, not a given), the next step will become more clear.
    The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
    progress. -- Joseph Joubert
    Attachment 1008

  9. #29
    Senior Member atmjjc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calikid View Post
    It is certainly an interesting phenomenon.
    But the problem I have is that even if we achieve Lucid Dreaming (a skill I have difficulty with), the next step almost seems a leap of faith.
    Is this dream state a true dimension to be explored?
    Perhaps a reflection of physical reality (Bi-location/R.V.)?
    Or is it simply the result of a rich imagination bordering on delusion.
    I do not know.

    The only empirical proof would be the scientific results you discount. Not condemning you.
    Just an observation that while interesting to research, it is difficult for me to reach a conclusion.
    The best I can do is keep an open mind, and attempt to replicate what other have shared.
    So far, I have had VIVID dreams that seem very real, but non-the-less can be identified as dreams.
    While the more difficult skill of LUCID dreaming still eludes me.
    Perhaps if I ever achieve LUCID dreaming (AFAIK, not a given), the next step will become more clear.
    I know exactly where you are coming from. In a roundabout way you are referring to Subjective Validation.

    Using RV as an example if scientifically you see a pattern that works in an episodic way in estimates of 60% it would be a significant observation but not positive truth. The math would not work out to where it would be of positive significance.

    The pattern in itself would be the significant evidence of truth, but arguable, and calling for further studies.
    We control matter because we control the mind. Reality is inside the skull.
    ~ George Orwell ‘1984’

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by calikid View Post
    It is certainly an interesting phenomenon.
    But the problem I have is that even if we achieve Lucid Dreaming (a skill I have difficulty with), the next step almost seems a leap of faith.
    Is this dream state a true dimension to be explored?
    Perhaps a reflection of physical reality (Bi-location/R.V.)?
    Or is it simply the result of a rich imagination bordering on delusion.
    I do not know.

    The only empirical proof would be the scientific results you discount. Not condemning you.
    Just an observation that while interesting to research, it is difficult for me to reach a conclusion.
    The best I can do is keep an open mind, and attempt to replicate what other have shared.
    So far, I have had VIVID dreams that seem very real, but non-the-less can be identified as dreams.
    While the more difficult skill of LUCID dreaming still eludes me.
    Perhaps if I ever achieve LUCID dreaming (AFAIK, not a given), the next step will become more clear.
    As the old saying goes "you had to be there." Some things I think may not be provable by what today we consider empirical. I mean some day soon we may find that we have been playing with a deck short a card... A whole fundamental force!

    LOL how many more cards ( It can be said we are all dealing with a deck of illusion rather than delusion,can it not?) are missing of just as great a significance. Of which, we may not even have the tools presently to even approach. Our main, and I think neglected tool, is our own brains, despite it's known propensity for fallibility, but then how more the machinations of that minds machines and instruments we put so much faith in? A catch 22 huh...

    I find it hard to characterize lucid dreaming as a skill, nevertheless here's a suggestion. Most often I find myself becoming aware of the dream at different times, the best way I can us to describe a place to catch hold of the dream (at least at first) is the "in between state" the moment you know you are dreaming, when most people wake. The trick is not to wake completely but step into that state, let yourself relax into it.

    It takes a bit of practice but it works for me.

    Leave the more esoteric stuff behind for the moment!
    Last edited by whoknows; 07-12-2016 at 07:30 PM.

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