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Thread: Emerging Surveillance State?

  1. #41
    Senior Member majicbar's Avatar
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    I think this whole argument in favor of Snowden and the supposed NSA and the "surveillance state" is based on people NOT knowing how the system works. Remember the SNAFU of 9/11, of not being able to connect the dots? What is going on here is that the NSA needs to collect and archive "dots" in order to be able to connect them. Paranoia that the NSA is collecting wholesale conversations says more about the American psychology than anything else. The NSA could not possibly analyze every conversation that is going on, even automation would not allow this. During Vietnam there was the very same thing, but we just called them the "Army Spies" back then the same paranoia existed. Given many, many more billions of dollars it would be possible to collect this information on every communication and conversation, but not to actually analyze it. And once collected it could not be stored for very long.

    What IS being collected in the "dots" are points to construct a "relational database" which can then be interrogated for "connections" against which to then conduct more traditional investigative workups for real terrorists and what they may be planning. To this point I don't think Snowden's actions actually have harmed this effort, what is more likely that his actions will start a cascade of irrational reactions from the paranoid among us.

  2. #42
    I would rather err on the side of caution. We are not only a predatory species, but prey not only to other species, but of our own as well. So a little paranoia isn't all bad!

  3. #43
    Lead Moderator calikid's Avatar
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    There is no doubt the intelligence agencies have a difficult job. Help keep us safe.
    I want them to be successful, it is simply the manner they appear to be conducting business that I object too.

    Is their work important? VERY.
    What can we do to make them more successful at their job? As much as we can, within reason.
    I draw the line at suspension of constitutional rights. Martial law has NOT been declared.

    Normal legal procedures dictate that to conduct surveillance on citizens, some type of cause must be shown that the people are probably involved in criminal activity.
    To dispense with this step (which is my MAIN OBJECTION), is to treat everyone like criminals.

    IMO just hoovering up information for fishing expeditions might make their job easier, but the cost (sacrifice of civil liberties) is too high.
    Again IMO, they need to develop Human Intelligence, and use that information to justify targeted data collection.
    The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
    progress. -- Joseph Joubert
    Attachment 1008

  4. #44
    "I was walking home one night and a guy hammering on a roof called me a paranoid little weirdo. In Morse Code." ~ Emo Phillips

    Miss August and I were camping in Shoshone, south of Death Valley, in the eroded, dried mud and sand canyons of a lake bed from the Lake Mannix era. We got up early in the morning to go look for fossils or anything else of interest. As we made our way up one canyon, she was ahead of me by about thirty yards or so. Several military bases use the area as a flight test range, so when I heard a sound above me I looked up, thinking I might see some exotic aircraft. Three black, unmarked helicopters flew slowly overhead in a line formation.

    "Look" I called out, pointing to the sky.

    There was a pause, then she called back at me, "Maybe they are flying to the place where they paint the numbers on."

  5. #45
    Senior Member majicbar's Avatar
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    This whole Snowden thing is really going to get messy. The latest revelation is that Snowden met with Greenwald and a videographer a month before joined the contractor to the NSA. We now have this as a conspiracy to elicit and expose government secrets. They are all going down, free press protection does not excuse a clearly criminal act. Greenwald has been an arrogant ass, it will be good to see that ass in jail for a very long time.

  6. #46
    "The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion."
    - Edmund Burke

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by majicbar View Post
    This whole Snowden thing is really going to get messy. The latest revelation is that Snowden met with Greenwald and a videographer a month before joined the contractor to the NSA. We now have this as a conspiracy to elicit and expose government secrets. They are all going down, free press protection does not excuse a clearly criminal act. Greenwald has been an arrogant ass, it will be good to see that ass in jail for a very long time.
    That's pretty subjective verbiage there.

    Is just his ass you don't like?

  8. #48
    Lead Moderator calikid's Avatar
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    Got a email reply from my US senator on this issue.
    She said she does not usually commment on top secret subjects, but since the cat is out of the bag....

    Anyway, after I read through it (entirely) will post here if she has any new info to share.

    Suspect\expect CYA material.
    The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
    progress. -- Joseph Joubert
    Attachment 1008

  9. #49
    @ majic
    I don't agree. Civil liberties are at stake in the US and the NSA and other agencies seem to run riot around Congress and the constitution. Do you want unfettered access by the intelligence agencies at the expense of freedom of expression and privacy? Do they really need all that information? Is terrorism that big a threat? With the powers at their disposal no one is going to get away with it anyway.
    What is a defence contractor doing having access to all that data? Selling more arms for more wars great! No conflict of interest there.
    Talk about paranoia, what with drone strikes on foreign soil
    keeping prisoners without trial and invading other countries on made up charges- 'the land of the free' is looking anything but. If china and Russia started acting the same way? What a legacy. Sorry guys but you're not looking good from overseas

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by calikid View Post
    Got a email reply from my US senator on this issue.
    She said she does not usually commment on top secret subjects, but since the cat is out of the bag....

    Anyway, after I read through it (entirely) will post here if she has any new info to share.

    Suspect\expect CYA material.
    Would be interesting to read her reply.

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