War with Russia

[majicbar]

I also heard of the two fighter jets trailing the airliner, perhaps one of them may have been the intended target.

There is also a lot of whining about the crash sight "crime seen" being contaminated by various ground personnel. The fact is that the sight is not really a crime seen as it is truly a battle field, in which case the authority reverts to "might is right" scenario IMO...

Oh, and welcome aboard sam!

"crime scene" man, "crime scene".

[epo333]

"crime scene" man, "crime scene".

Duh,

Thanks MB... must of been in a hurry! lol

[majicbar]

Hi everybody,

this is my first post and I certainly dont want to step on any toes but I think its time for a bit of equilibrium regarding opinions here.
In Germany the US loving parts of the population shrink, I give you that, but nonetheless the majority is still believing in "Democracy" of the US export type. Now to that fateful flight:

As of news channels available in Europe (and I cant say which came from which because I read so much):

1) One SPANISH air traffic controller of Eurocontrol saw TWO jets of the UKRAINIAN airforce (the so-called rebels have none) in the vincinity of the shot down plane up to the moment of the plane disappearing from radar.

2) The rebels have one disfunctional BUK system, it was captured from the Ukrainians a while ago and the electronics had been destroyed before surrendering it so it basically is just a none-functioning shell. I doubt they have the knowledge and/or spares to fix it. Other than the they only have manpacks which can only shoot down planes flying much lower than the one in question here.

3) NOBODY in this conflict has anything to gain from this tragedy, so it most likely is "human error" either of the MIG pilots or of some ground personal operating BUK, which is on a devastatingly low level of expertise regarding these complicated weapons systems, and that according to their own military sources, corroborated by Russian experts.

4) Putin has been one of the more appeasing voices in this conflict - very much opposed to american CIA and blackwater which are enganged there heavily (and as a first action took the entire gold reserves of Ukrain away - to save it from the big bad wolve - but how that ends the German Bundesbank had to find out the hard way).

-sam

1) One SPANISH air traffic controller of Eurocontrol saw TWO jets of the UKRAINIAN airforce (the so-called rebels have none) in the vincinity of the shot down plane up to the moment of the plane disappearing from radar.

I do not see how a Spanish sector controller could see this when the Ukraine is on the opposite side of the network and when one tries to see the ties of the Ukraine with Eurocontol, it is distinctly not tied to that of the Spanish control area?

https://www.eurocontrol.int/articles...ntrol-services

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocontrol

[sam]

I do not see how a Spanish sector controller could see this when the Ukraine is on the opposite side of the network and when one tries to see the ties of the Ukraine with Eurocontol, it is distinctly not tied to that of the Spanish control area?

He is a Spanish citizen, none was said about where in Europe he was stationed. I mentioned it because it was part of the news item plus IMO it shows that he has no particular ax to grind with the Americans OR ukrainians.

[sam]

Welcome Sam. Nice to see a new face.
Funny how the news stories vary from place to place/country to country.

While the news you have shared might be true, an entirely different picture is painted by the press here in the USA.
For one thing, you seem to be leaning towards massive USA involvement when reports here (by USA press) are this is a Ukraine vs Russia affair.
The USA is simply part of a European coalition, on the sidelines trying to lend a hand sorting out the details.

Not so, the US has started the entire conflict by actively demolishing the original government and replacing it with its puppet (a multi-millionair of course) by means of the usual tactic of "orange revolution". Of course that is NEVER mentioned in the US press or TV which is OWNED by the 3-letter agencies. You, as a member of this forum, should know that. Its not "european news". It more like the satellite state "BRD" which never since 1945 was really sovereign due to still active allied control laws e.g. regulating what our "free" press and TV is allowed to show has been forced to support this new US aggression, one of many as you well know and one that fits the pattern of previous CIA/NSA instigated regime changes nicely. Even the average German citizen is now waking up to the fact that the US is anything but our "friendly partner" but a world wide bully in urgent need to be restrained. This of course is mostly due to the NSA spying on their "allies" but it had the positive effect to sensitize many to any and all US instigated actions.

and thanx for welcoming me

-sam

[majicbar]

He is a Spanish citizen, none was said about where in Europe he was stationed. I mentioned it because it was part of the news item plus IMO it shows that he has no particular ax to grind with the Americans OR ukrainians.

The citation of national origin is as relevant as reporting race or religion, it is repugnant. If he were working as an official of Eurocontrol that is all the credentials that one would need to be relevant as a reporter. In that case if the report is verified as a valid Eurocontrol report, no reference to who observed it would be important. I hope that the report is a valid Eurocontrol product, otherwise it fails to add to the story.

[calikid]

Not so, the US has started the entire conflict by actively demolishing the original government and replacing it with its puppet (a multi-millionair of course) by means of the usual tactic of "orange revolution". Of course that is NEVER mentioned in the US press or TV which is OWNED by the 3-letter agencies. You, as a member of this forum, should know that. Its not "european news". It more like the satellite state "BRD" which never since 1945 was really sovereign due to still active allied control laws e.g. regulating what our "free" press and TV is allowed to show has been forced to support this new US aggression, one of many as you well know and one that fits the pattern of previous CIA/NSA instigated regime changes nicely. Even the average German citizen is now waking up to the fact that the US is anything but our "friendly partner" but a world wide bully in urgent need to be restrained. This of course is mostly due to the NSA spying on their "allies" but it had the positive effect to sensitize many to any and all US instigated actions.

and thanx for welcoming me

-sam

Funny you draw the line at 1945.
Seem to recall prior to that date the Germans were the ones that needed restraint.
And it wasn't "orange revolution" in that region (Russian Front), but all out military aggression with all the collateral damage that went with it.

What I see is Ukraine trying to distance itself economically from Russia, and ally itself with Europe.
Russia has retaliated by sponsoring Russian sympathizers, and 'annexing' parts of a sovereign country (Crimea, etc.).

Trying to draw the US as some grand designer seems a stretch of the facts to me.
On the face of it, looks more like neighbors fighting a boarder dispute.
A dispute that cost nearly 300 civilians the ultimate price.
Don't know WHO is responsible for the shoot down, but a good investigation can reveal the truth, assign responsibility, allow for appropriate punishments, and hopefully give some comfort/answers to the families left behind.

[sam]

Funny you draw the line at 1945.
Seem to recall prior to that date the Germans were the ones that needed restraint.
And it wasn't "orange revolution" in that region (Russian Front), but all out military aggression with all the collateral damage that went with it.

What I see is Ukraine trying to distance itself economically from Russia, and ally itself with Europe.
Russia has retaliated by sponsoring Russian sympathizers, and 'annexing' parts of a sovereign country (Crimea, etc.).

Trying to draw the US as some grand designer seems a stretch of the facts to me.
On the face of it, looks more like neighbors fighting a boarder dispute.
A dispute that cost nearly 300 civilians the ultimate price.
Don't know WHO is responsible for the shoot down, but a good investigation can reveal the truth, assign responsibility, allow for appropriate punishments, and hopefully give some comfort/answers to the families left behind.

Its not funny at all, 1945 was the year German sovereignity was lost, why and how is not under dispute here.

It amazes me to no end that a member of this forum obviously is still under the influence of CIA cointel by means of US TV and media. Russia did not annex Crimea, there was a vote and if I recall correctly about near 90% voted in favor of disengaging from Ukraine and switching to Russia. Not really a surprise for those who have had a real education (as opposed to that what passes for it in the USA today). Crimea was a part of Russia for the longest time and was only handed to Ukraine as a token by Stalin. The population there has Russian roots and speak Russian. In what way is that a annexation when the same thing happening somewhere else (and take any other country switching from one bloc to another, e.g. Romania from the Russian sphere to the EU) is a free democratic endevor?

300 vicitims is a lot, but nothing compared to Libya, Irak, and Syria, the last one only surviving as an intact entity due to Russian support against US funded terror. So maybe the Ukainians arnt as stupid (and religiously misled) like the other victims of the only rough state left on this planet, the US.

Unless you are a government mole (which are present in all the alternative internet structures) you are miserably informed. Maybe you spend some time finding out what really happens on this sphere before arguing out of the "official history channel" info, which is really 100% controlled gutter class journalism.

-sam

[Garuda]

Sam, you're new here. Have you read the Terms of Service and Posting rules?

Let's try and keep the discussion respectful, and focus on facts rather than resorting to denigrating comments like a forum member being 'under the influence of CIA cointel,' and things like 'a real education (as opposed to what passes for it in the USA today)', and 'unless you are a government mole' ... All of those remarks qualify as trolling.

[majicbar]

Its not funny at all, 1945 was the year German sovereignity was lost, why and how is not under dispute here.

It amazes me to no end that a member of this forum obviously is still under the influence of CIA cointel by means of US TV and media. Russia did not annex Crimea, there was a vote and if I recall correctly about near 90% voted in favor of disengaging from Ukraine and switching to Russia. Not really a surprise for those who have had a real education (as opposed to that what passes for it in the USA today). Crimea was a part of Russia for the longest time and was only handed to Ukraine as a token by Stalin. The population there has Russian roots and speak Russian. In what way is that a annexation when the same thing happening somewhere else (and take any other country switching from one bloc to another, e.g. Romania from the Russian sphere to the EU) is a free democratic endevor?

300 vicitims is a lot, but nothing compared to Libya, Irak, and Syria, the last one only surviving as an intact entity due to Russian support against US funded terror. So maybe the Ukainians arnt as stupid (and religiously misled) like the other victims of the only rough state left on this planet, the US.

Unless you are a government mole (which are present in all the alternative internet structures) you are miserably informed. Maybe you spend some time finding out what really happens on this sphere before arguing out of the "official history channel" info, which is really 100% controlled gutter class journalism.

-sam

sam, I'd welcome you to this forum but you are trouble. You argue from a position that is clearly not supported by reality but what you fancy what you would want to believe is the truth, but is not. You would be quick to label those who support verifiable history as agents of government or , "100% controlled gutter class journalism". From your arguments I could almost believe that you are a Russian agent. Clearly the Crimea vote occurred after Russia's invasion, there is no valid annexation of Crimea, vote or not. The rules of international conduct as established by the UN have been trampled and Russia deserves whatever sanctions the International Community of the UN wants to impose. You clearly have the right in this forum to post what you will, but understand what you post will be believed and supported only to the extent to which your opinions are built on facts and truths even when they come from what you believe to be the "100% controlled gutter class journalism".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexat...ian_Federation