The Big Debate

[norenrad]

Is that the work you're doing these days?

My career field has been inundated by them. What used to be a decent job with good earnings has become a sweatshop for the underpaid and untrained. Many trained and educated technicians are forced into this frustrating option where lifestyle and camaraderie have digressed into poverty and backstabbing.

[noot]

My career field has been inundated by them. What used to be a decent job with good earnings has become a sweatshop for the underpaid and untrained. Many trained and educated technicians are forced into this frustrating option where lifestyle and camaraderie have digressed into poverty and backstabbing.

I guess that's how corporations maximize profits, eh? Capital is, first of all, amoral. And any system that turns humans into commodities and fungible assets is unethical, rotten, at the core.

[norenrad]

These companies need to suck it up and take ownership. Quit farming jobs out and passing on the responsibilities they should own. Right now, MillerCoors is paying $170.00 an hour for me to be on site. I get $17.00 of that after IBM and AT&T and BlackBox and Verigent get their cut... and I'm the one doing all the work. If MillerCoors can afford to pay out $170.00 an hour, I think they could very well afford to pay out $35.00-$40.00 dollars an hour and offer benefits. The problem is they don't want the responsibility for their workers after retirement, this is why we should all pay into individual retirement plans, keeping the politician's hands out of it.

[noot]

Yeah, Coors sucks. Always did and always will. Their beer sucks too. What'd ya expect from a company founded by a guy named Adolf? hahahaha

[Redbone]

These companies need to suck it up and take ownership. Quit farming jobs out and passing on the responsibilities they should own. Right now, MillerCoors is paying $170.00 an hour for me to be on site. I get $17.00 of that after IBM and AT&T and BlackBox and Verigent get their cut... and I'm the one doing all the work. If MillerCoors can afford to pay out $170.00 an hour, I think they could very well afford to pay out $35.00-$40.00 dollars an hour and offer benefits. The problem is they don't want the responsibility for their workers after retirement, this is why we should all pay into individual retirement plans, keeping the politician's hands out of it.

I was in the same situation with IBM. I was paid by a Temp Agency but worked at the IBM Campus at Research Triangle Park, NC. I made $33 an hour but had to pay 100% for my Health Benefits. The Temp agency did have a 401k with 3% making funds, but that was all they offered. I managed to hold out for eight years, but Big Blue is bad about laying off. I was lucky enough to land on my feet with a decent employee oriented company with good benefits. In fact there are several IBM'ers working were I am now.

In the case of IBM they would over hire as needed to complete certain projects, then lay off the excess. We jokingly called it the 'Revolving door policy.' Shame is you would never hear anything in the news, when this happened, because they did not have to report massive layoffs of Temps. Also Big Blue got State and Federal tax breaks, didn't have to pay Health and Retirement cost. Gotta Luv'em.

[Redbone]

My statement was rhetorical not literal. I all too well understand the implications of a mass exodus. Although the simplier 'Tee Pee' life would be a welcome change from my hectic '8 to 5' daily grind. Factually it would be more of a 'Longhouse' since the Cherokee were not nomadic. My ancestors were hunter/gatherers and excellent farmers before the time of the 'White Eyes!'
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......
Redbone, thanks for the additional comments. I did assume as much, but it is always hard to know.................. . One of your comments does bring up additional thoughts! The "simpler life" you mentioned, is something all of us can look back on, sometimes with envious thoughts, as we ply about in this hectic world. My own grandparents on both sides were farming families. They were great people, with each having a large number of kids. Yes, it seemed to be a very simple life for them, and likely was much the same for their ancestors.

But, "simple" doesn't = "easy". They were both on their farms until I was about 18 years old. I saw their "work". They were experts at what they did, but what they did was work very hard, from before daylight until dark or after. Always more things needed to be done, than time for doing them. Everyone in the family worked on the farm, except when school was in session. Work for the men, and work for the women. Cows, and milking, and churning, and chickens, and getting the eggs, and pigs, and annual slaughtering the pigs for meat, and planting and hoeing and harvesting the corn, cotton, hay, and wheat, and taking care of all of the equipment, planting and caring for the vegetable garden for food for the family, and on/on/on/on, and on.

Redbone, I would assume that the simple life of the Cherokee was much of the same, as for the "white eyes! A simple way of life, but a life of really "hard work" also

All of us have a lot to be proud of, because of the hard work of our ancestors. The technical complications of life today would be difficult for our ancestors, but then also would the "simple lives" of our ancestors be very difficult for us today. "No air-conditioning"??? GET OUT OF HERE!!!!

Before our white brothers arrived to make us civilized men,
we didn't have any kind of prison. Because of this, we had no delinquents.
Without a prison, there can be no delinquents.
We had no locks nor keys and therefore among us there were no thieves.
When someone was so poor that he couldn't afford a horse, a tent or a blanket,
he would, in that case, receive it all as a gift.
We were too uncivilized to give great importance to private property.
We didn't know any kind of money and consequently, the value of a human being
was not determined by his wealth.
We had no written laws laid down, no lawyers, no politicians,
therefore we were not able to cheat and swindle one another.
We were really in bad shape before the white men arrived and I don't know
how to explain how we were able to manage without these fundamental things
that (so they tell us) are so necessary for a civilized society.

John (Fire) Lame Deer
Sioux Lakota - 1903-1976

[noot]

Excellent, Redbone. But you're unfortunately talking to a brick wall.

[rdunk]

Before our white brothers arrived to make us civilized men,
we didn't have any kind of prison. Because of this, we had no delinquents.
Without a prison, there can be no delinquents.
We had no locks nor keys and therefore among us there were no thieves.
When someone was so poor that he couldn't afford a horse, a tent or a blanket,
he would, in that case, receive it all as a gift.
We were too uncivilized to give great importance to private property.
We didn't know any kind of money and consequently, the value of a human being
was not determined by his wealth.
We had no written laws laid down, no lawyers, no politicians,
therefore we were not able to cheat and swindle one another.
We were really in bad shape before the white men arrived and I don't know
how to explain how we were able to manage without these fundamental things
that (so they tell us) are so necessary for a civilized society.

John (Fire) Lame Deer
Sioux Lakota - 1903-1976

.................................................. .................................................. .........
Redbone, thanks for posting the quote from John Fire Lame Deer! That in brief tells a huge story of what can happen when two entirely different civilizations, by events, are brought together. We all can look back, and be saddened by the so many bad things that happened, over a lot of years, as the "white brothers" and Indians came together. I did look John Fire Lame Deer up, and found some good interesting additional details on him and his life. Seems he was a person of importance to a lot of people. Here is a link to a very short wiki bio for him. Of course, the link is for others, like me, who did not know of him!

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Fire_Lame_Deer