What we think we know so far

[Fore]

Hey Powessy,
Lets move back to the Atmijic (Paranormal) thread. We can keep discussing things over there.

Follow this link for my next post:

http://www.theoutpostforum.com/tof/s...ll=1#post40674

[atmjjc]

Ahh, I do love Atmjjc's usage of metaphorical language, and you do have a valid perspective. Here's where I'm coming from:

Indeed the 82nd has had a long history of good discipline and command, but unfortunately in more recent times there have been serious problems. The special forces already in the area I was talking about were particularly vocal about what had happened at the time [I note that most US publications have taken down their original material, as they purge all older stories (there is no grand conspiracy), but it is still around in some overseas publications] http://www.theguardian.com/world/200...nistan.comment . It is also unfortunate that the documentation connected to combat in general is being lost, and that in itself is leading to serious problems https://www.propublica.org/article/l...ms-by-veterans

Good reputations can be tarnished, but that does not mean what has occurred previously has lost its grandeur, and I suspect that the 82nd has improved since certain operational problems in the recent past. However, there is a dramatic lack of positive articles published in recent times [this may not be the case in the states], which I personally feel is more of a failing of the PR division and should be addressed. After all, people tend to remember negatives more often than positives, and overseas we've not had many opportunities to hear of positive outcomes; Although the more secretive sections of US special forces get very good press, but then again they are a whole different matter.

Curiously the invading forces in the Falklands had a very interesting issue with discipline, namely that most of the poor guys were badly trained conscripts thrown into a conflict for a set of islands they'd never heard of before. Fortunately the group of young guys that took my parents house were quite sensible, and after the conflict they didn't booby trap the property. However, for my next door neighbours it was a fairly different issue, with such things as grenades primed under teacups and mugs etc. It took a very long time for the EOD to render safe the civilian properties that had been previously occupied... my point being that a disciplined force doesn't booby trap properties to which women and children will be returning, but one lacking discipline and with a grudge after losing a conflict will. Another interesting point about the liberating forces was that they were relatively well behaved, but again there was the odd bad apple such as the individual who set the hospital on fire, killing my babysitter and several others who couldn't get out. Generally looting was kept tolerable, but again there were even some bad apples among the liberating forces; but only some, and to be honest I expect there will be idiots in any force.

So, my opinion is that acts falling outside of discipline should be talked about, and kept within their context where possible. And that it is indeed possible for a force to be tarnished by the actions of a few at a given point in time, and that some serious polishing needs to be done afterward; that's the bit I think is missing right now. I don't think that not talking about matters helps anyone, and in many cases it can allow people to move forward. So is that defamation? Not by a long shot, see the definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation Some readers may also be surprised that I do see military action as an effective solution for some matters, but more from the perspective of reversing illegitimate gains, enforcing international borders, and wiping out groups working against global stability; such as the assassinati, who change names and alliances with regularity (you may know one offshoot as Daesh, IS, or ISIS. A particularly virulent version utilizing the weaknesses of young disenfranchised Sunni men and women.)

Oh please, spare me the left wing progressive view of life. I get nauseous when I read it yet alone have to reply to it.

Are you are trying to persuade me to believe the left wing progressive propaganda nonsense you read somewhere?

We are getting way off topic here but since this is your thread Ponti, I will respond briefly and to the point concerning our U.S. Military.

First off the Falkland Islands is 5317.5 Miles from New Zealand. So what is your point on the comparison? Our US Military played a small role in that war between the British and Argentina. America was strongly criticized for not playing a bigger part except for only supplying intelligence to the Brits. Close to a thousand British and Argentinian soldiers died in that war with only three (3) civilian deaths. Though no one likes to do body counts-- but only 3 civilian deaths is an outstandingly low number and credit should be given to both sides in that war to keep the collateral civilian death numbers so low. It could have been much worse.

Death Count
Argentina suffered 649 killed
British Army - 123 (7 officers, 40 NCOs and 76 privates)
Royal Navy - 86 + 2 Hong Kong laundrymen
Royal Marines - 27 (2 officers, 14 NCOs and 11 privates)
Merchant Navy - 6 + 2 Hong Kong sailors
Royal Fleet Auxiliary - 4 + 4 Hong Kong laundrymen
Royal Air Force - 1 (1 officer)
Falklands Islands civilians - 3 (3 women killed by friendly fire)


The lack of discipline that you falsely attribute to our Combat Troops can be directly traced back to the Whitehouse with its political rhetoric forced through the Chain of Command down to the Ground Forces. When you are under fire and clearly have the enemy in your sights but you have to make a phone call to see if it’s okay to shoot back and you are denied that request to fire back and have to watch people die needlessly and solely because of politics, it takes discipline, not the lack of, to hold that fire. The ‘cognitive dissonance’ forced on our combat soldiers due to political maneuvering is a disgrace.

The left wing term that stirs my anger the most is when I hear it said about the role of our military is to “win the hearts and minds of the populace”…Poppycock!-- It’s nice when it happens, but that is not the role of our military…

Combat soldiers are not social workers or community organizers!
The role of the U.S. Military Combat Soldier is to take orders given and to DESTROY and KILL the ENEMY and not to hand out candy and lollipops.

[Fore]

Oh please, spare me the left wing progressive view of life. I get nauseous when I read it yet alone have to reply to it.

Are you are trying to persuade me to believe the left wing progressive propaganda nonsense you read somewhere?

He actually lived it. Hes mentioned it a few times, not with much detail, but he has.

You are therefore mistaken. Your ideals/world view and his former reality are obviously colliding.

We are getting way off topic here but since this is your thread Ponti, I will respond briefly and to the point concerning our U.S. Military.

First off the Falkland Islands is 5317.5 Miles from New Zealand. So what is your point on the comparison?

Shoot first ask questions second.

....[face-palm]

Our US Military played a small role in that war between the British and Argentina. America was strongly criticized for not playing a bigger part except for only supplying intelligence to the Brits. Close to a thousand British and Argentinian soldiers died in that war with only three (3) civilian deaths. Though no one likes to do body counts-- but only 3 civilian deaths is an outstandingly low number and credit should be given to both sides in that war to keep the collateral civilian death numbers so low. It could have been much worse.

Death Count
Argentina suffered 649 killed
British Army - 123 (7 officers, 40 NCOs and 76 privates)
Royal Navy - 86 + 2 Hong Kong laundrymen
Royal Marines - 27 (2 officers, 14 NCOs and 11 privates)
Merchant Navy - 6 + 2 Hong Kong sailors
Royal Fleet Auxiliary - 4 + 4 Hong Kong laundrymen
Royal Air Force - 1 (1 officer)
Falklands Islands civilians - 3 (3 women killed by friendly fire)

Best guess vs Actual.

Keep in mind, Atmjic, those reportings are the ones they know about or are reported and cataloged. You can't ask everyone and most people are not asked. Not necessarily a real number.

The lack of discipline that you falsely attribute to our Combat Troops can be directly traced back to the Whitehouse with its political rhetoric forced through the Chain of Command down to the Ground Forces. When you are under fire and clearly have the enemy in your sights but you have to make a phone call to see if it’s okay to shoot back and you are denied that request to fire back and have to watch people die needlessly and solely because of politics, it takes discipline, not the lack of, to hold that fire. The ‘cognitive dissonance’ forced on our combat soldiers due to political maneuvering is a disgrace.

The left wing term that stirs my anger the most is when I hear it said about the role of our military is to “win the hearts and minds of the populace”…Poppycock!-- It’s nice when it happens, but that is not the role of our military…

Combat soldiers are not social workers or community organizers!
The role of the U.S. Military Combat Soldier is to take orders given and to DESTROY and KILL the ENEMY and not to hand out candy and lollipops.

And in one fell swoop you made a strange argument.

At the beginning of the post, you made it about honor and discipline. Grace under fire, or discipline through a chain of command.
Then ended the post with (the obvious unavoidable truth) that a soldier is basically there to destroy, and to kill. ("the enemy") <-- added it last as a abstract concept.

It's a known issue that different occupying armies (including American since they too are human beings) have at times done questionable (and downright unnecessary/malicious) things. Are they the rule or the exception. Probably varies from day to day.

=====================

Point is, without stepping on any toes.

You have Pontifs take on it. A real, not imagined series of incidents.
Then you have your contrary take based on your own experience and some bluster.
Accepting that people will do stupid things in time of war should be common sense.
There are always bad apples and the amount varies from day to day as to whom does it.

So be a little more thoughtful, if that guy says something about his life.
(He left no room for doubt in his message it was a personal experience.)

Just because you saw the best of the best, does not negate the fact that someone else may have seen the worst.

And with that, "hey, we are off topic?"

[atmjjc]

LOL, I am beginning to feel stupid replying to something as stupid as your last post Fore. Is there something you don’t understand... let me repeat and quote myself below…

Oh please, spare me the left wing progressive view of life. I get nauseous when I read it yet alone have to reply to it.

Q) You know how to break an idiots finger who is doing a face palm?
A) You punch him in the nose.

You have a habit Fore of taking sentences out of context and putting your lame spin on them. I was very clear on what I said and meant and don’t need you to interpret for me.

Again

Combat soldiers are not social workers or community organizers!
The role of the U.S. Military Combat Soldier is to take orders given and to DESTROY and KILL the ENEMY and not to hand out candy and lollipops.

Lets leave it at this we are way off topic.

[Fore]

LOL, I am beginning to feel stupid replying to something as stupid as your last post Fore.

Phew, that was refreshing. You are right, I still don't know why I had to point that out earlier. I think we are starting to come to the same page on this.

Q) You know how to break an idiots finger who is doing a face palm?
A) You punch him in the nose.

You need a cup of green tea. Should I wear an iron mask or should I place the cup between me and your flying fist?

Lets make sure we remain mellow while discussing that.

Leftist-Liberterian Funny Joke coming up:

You have a habit Fore of taking sentences out of context and putting your lame spin on them. I was very clear on what I said and meant and don’t need you to interpret for me.

Again




Lets leave it at this we are way off topic.

Hey, I did copy the text. You even followed through. I am not sure if I should or shouldn't offer you this green tea. Relax, if a conversation alone triggers WW3 and broken fingers then what can we hope for......?

[pontificator]

@Fore, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0709092955.htm <-- matches in nicely with 2020's, also of note is the outlook for 2030 through to 40. Means there is about 5 years in it before the defining history line, and I personally suspect the 2030 decade is the real decider on genetic lineages; doesn't matter if anyone makes the 2020 disaster decade if they die in the decade after. So, overall, looks like a guaranteed quarter century of hell coming up if things go badly as forecast.

[montalk]

Couple books on this:

Dark Winter: How the Sun Is Causing a 30-Year Cold Spell - James Casey

Twilight of Abundance: Why Life in the 21st Century Will Be Nasty, Brutish, and Short - David Archibald

Couple videos:





The obvious thing to take away from this is that over the past 150 years the population has puffed up to 7 billion on the good graces of the stable climate (in addition to technology, etc). If the grain belts of the world get hit hard by a mini ice age, that simply can't be sustained. Severe droughts in some areas, prolonged torrential rain in other areas turning fields into swamps, crop killing freezes, snow in June, harbors icing over, etc. With that contraction in food supply and disruption to commerce and travel... with that comes economic and social destabilization, collapse, riots, revolutions, regime changes, and wars. If China starts to starve and tries to collect on the $1.3 trillion the USA owes it, what's going to happen there?

Stuff like this has happened before during the Maunder and Dalton solar minimums; there are documentaries on it. So the standard of living plummets. Technology will try to offset that with innovations in food and energy production but can't cover it all for everyone. I think the science behind the solar cycle predictions is pretty solid. That article Pontif posted reports 97% accuracy.

[pontificator]

Any oddities for anyone to report? I've been very actively scanned in the last hour, and haven't had it happen that intensely for almost a couple of years.

[lycaeus]

Any oddities for anyone to report? I've been very actively scanned in the last hour, and haven't had it happen that intensely for almost a couple of years.

I haven't been reading here in a while but just read your question and nothing else this morning about 4 hours ago then about an hour later got a really long ear tone in my right ear that lasted about a minute.

[montalk]

Nothing out of the ordinary here. But I did have a couple interesting dreams of a type I haven't had in years, and with an increase in alien/exopolitic articles in mainstream news recently it made me wonder if "they" had returned from vacation and were now getting back to work. It's interesting how when things go quiet on the alien front, it goes quiet everywhere (websites, forums, media, personal lives). Shows how many places they're normally exerting influences.