Dick French

[Longeyes]

UFO Congress Backroom Interview 4: Dick French Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiOen593UU4

DF: Anyway, the first one that came to my attention… as far as active duty … had to with a P-38, tried to intercept one, in the Washington DC area and basically the same thing happened, he started to fire and basically the whole thing blew up.
MJ: Did it blow up or did it disappear? Was it definite that the aircraft was destroyed?
DF: Well it just disappeared, you understand? And I don’t think…
MJ: So no aircraft? No pilots?
DF: No, no nothing. And those of us who know a little bit about it, we wondered if he’s a prisoner of those people, or what the hell happened to him? We don’t have any idea.
MJ: What grounds do you know that there would be people in the objects? As such?(1.08)
DF: Well, the only way the only way I can say that I know anything in that regar,d has to do with people, instances where they have seen them and counted them, and that kind of thing. And in every case and I don’t know if you heard what I said to that guy this morning I kinda ate him alive,
MJ: For the sake of the tape…
DF: Oh yes the problem, the reason that people won’t report those there’s not one in ten there’s, no active military officer will ever report what he’s got any reason to avoid it and the simple reason is this: it’s called human reliability.(1.52) If you have top secret clearance and every jock does - if he doesn’t have one, he can’t be a pilot. No what’ll happen to you, you report, you say ‘Listen, I don’t care I really saw this’ You know to anybody, then when you’ve been told not to, of course. It’s that you lose your wings, you’ll lose your human reliability, and you’ll be out of the Air Force.(2.20)
MJ: And out of a job.
DF: Out of a job.
MJ: Dishonourable discharge?
DF: I don’t know if it’s dishonour I don’t know anyone who’s tried it…
MJ: They bring attention to that?
DF: You bet, they’ll bring attention to that! You know frigging well that’s gonna happen. And that’s the reason, you see, that anyone who has taken one, it’s a lifetime oath and they could recall me tomorrow, believe it. And take away my pension I have lifetime health care, take that away everything bam and then in the Slammer.
MJ: Even though this happened 60 years ago?
DF: Yes now would they, I don’t want to test them would you? (Laughs)
MJ: So what definitive event happened to change this from.. you mentioned that this has been going on for hundreds of years, thousands of years, why now what’s the big deal? Why now?
DF: If I wanted to make and educated guess it would simply be this because of the international tension right now, and I know they’re watching us and watching us right now, watching us very closely. And I put this in the book I’m working on. That if you know I talk about the Hadron Collider, I’m sure you’re familiar with?(3.52)
MJ: Yeah, explain for the audience…
DF: Alright, it’s a particle collider and the purpose of the thing is to go into the particle, sub particle physics – break down atoms. And the Super Collider based on what we except from it has announces the amount of knowledge to world has doubled every year. With the super collider it will go ahead with a rate of about a hundred times the total knowledge on Earth, every 8 hrs. Now you take the rate of advancement of human knowledge, and right know it’s going up a straight line, and all of a sudden it goes into afterburner and away!
MJ: We’re talking Star trek physics here?
DF: We’re talking Star Trek damn soon. I mean the only thing that stands back from that now is money.(4.58)
MJ: Would you argue that private organisations would with the money that they already have this technology.
DF: We right now the way it sits… you notice that all of these other countries are starting to… businesses like that are starting to launch satellites?
MJ: Yeah
DF: Well, there so there’s a lot of stuff out there… there’s a lot of money to be made the private corporations are going to go into that business. They have been launching geodesic , geocentric satellites like that for several years all the major countries have their own now. And there’s no question that there’s a lot of people on the inside there’s a lot of big money to made in that business in the future, and business follows the money.
MJ: So going back to where you started… Blue Book what brought you from there to here? What happened in the middle?
DF: Well, I after the basic Blue Book thing, I flew as a fighter pilot for the USAF for well over 20yrs.
MJ: What kind of jets?
DF: I flew 86s. That time frame and then I went …I had a bunch of Black assignments in the middle, (6.28)you know here’s a thing, the best way to explain it is once you’ve done one thing at a high level of confidentiality… they keep coming back to ya(6.38), shipping you out. I’ve been yanked out of jobs and they’ll say ‘You’re going someplace Dick!’
‘Where you going?’
’ I can’t tell ya’
‘When you gonna be back?’
‘I can’t tell ya’
And a little ad showed up in a Las Vegas paper. You know had to do, a free lecture by a guy who was an Air Force Flight Surgeon Brigadier General and he was giving a lecture at auditorium there at UNLV( University of Las Vegas) on the subject of… you know? It’s being given by an Air Force general and I’m sitting there listening to this.(7.15)
MJ: Would this be a form of disclosure by the Air Force about strange things..?.
DF: He did talk about some things I was damn surprised to hear coming out of an AF Gen Officer but it had to do with the paranormal and in the sense it was all this near-death experience, which is what most, and again that’s what happens in that period when you are certifiably dead.
MJ: Is that quite common in the Armed Services? Cause a lot of people go through that experience of death?
DF: Yeah yeah that’s right. That stimulated my curiosity and I talked to the General and I talked to Dr Moody(probably http://raymondmoody.org/ who coined the term near-death experience {NDE}) ‘Why don’t you come back to another lecture?’ And so once or twice a month I’d go to one of these.
And he put me in charge of a team and all of a sudden I’ve got 8 people working for me under Moody these various scientific projects to work on. I was kinda of enjoying it.
MJ: And what were these on?
DF: Do you know what a psychomanteum ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychomanteum NB further reading Dr. Moody) is for instance?
MJ: No
DF: Basically it’s a pyramid you can build one in your backyard (Dr Moody’s Pschomanteum http://www.lifeafterlife.com/psychomanteum.html). Canvas and all this and basically and sit in there, you put yourself in a meditative state and it’s supposed to increase what you know and you’re supposed to draw power from (raises arms above his head)
MJ: What’s the device made from has it got a metal frame or….?
DF: No, no, no, what we, I did on their instructions, was there a kit you could go buy it. It was about 12 by 12 and had metal poles you screwed together and from each one of them
MJ: Basically just a tent really?
DF: Yes basically a tent. The power happened to related to the shape of the thing and the concentration that you did within this supposedly I don’t know
MJ: Did you have to have any special kind of orientation?

[Longeyes]

UFO Congress Backroom Interview 4: Dick French Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pb4p...459741BCEF400F
DF: What we really started this over, and it was mentioned today in one of the lectures. Dr Kristoff??? who was a friend of Dr Karagulla (This must be her http://www.answers.com/topic/shafica-karagulla she was ask to go to Montreal to study with the world’s top neuroscientist Dr. Wilder Penfield and taught at the UCLA. Took a whole lot of digging to find who DF could be talking about she was in fact Turkish and she is mentioned on p.400 of ‘Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain’ see below) Karagulla was head of the err… was is basically a project that the Russians had, to set up, so that they basically it’s like post hypnotic, post hypnotic suggestion, so they can make people do things without…
MJ: A Manchurian Candidate kind of thing?
DF: Well I haven’t seen that movie.
MJ: But it’s where you’d program people to do things…
DF: Yeah you were psychologically programmed to do something you won’t normally do.
MJ: Then you could be switched on to do that task.
DF: Yeah, yeah, whatever is required to trigger, it can take nothing more, if you were triggered, you know, I would trigger you originally with these glasses (holds up glasses) you understand? Eventually I won’t even have to lift them up just have to put my hand on them. Bang! (Snaps fingers) Then you’re gone!
MJ: So how intense was that program did it involve the Russians?
DF: The Russians were trying to do it and they were successful in many cases for sure.(1.42)
MJ: Was this against US personnel?
DF: Err well, primarily against the US diplomatic services but military officers, anything, anyone that had information that could be useful for them. Their intention was to use them for sabotage and all kinds of things.
MJ: We’re talking during the Cold War?
DF: Cold War era
MJ: 50’s
DF: Yeah in the 50’s. She err when right after the Berlin Wall fell Karagulla left that job she was head of that program at the University of Moscow. And she left there, and I understand from a conversation with her once, that she came Montreal (2.27) Taught two years in Montreal , and applied to UCLA which has the best paranormal school, at that time between them and Duke University it was kind of a toss-up. But ah…
MJ: Which University?
DF: Duke University I think it’s in North Carolina, anyway
MJ: They were concentrating on have special programs?
DF: Well yes they have extremely strong schools, good faculty in those two areas but UCLA I think was the best. And North Western had a program to
MJ: Basically psychic studies?
DF: Yeah
MJ: But with heavy psychological applications…
DF: Yeah
MJ: Essentially for mind weapon systems?
DF: Well they were using it for a lot of things. There a certain things like smoking that you can cure with hypnotism, all kinds of things they were working on. So it wasn’t like that wasn’t the only thing they did. It’s like having a business school - well you want to sell something? Or do you want to market it? Or do you want to do this? Or do that?
MJ: So major commercial applications as well as defence?
DF: Oh yeah certainly. (3.50)
MJ: So getting back to how you are involved in all this
DF: Alright Dr Krisoff??? He knew Dr Karagulla The simple reason that he was over there before war, WWII started. And Dr Karagulla I don’t know if I’ve told you about him… No no no excuse me I’ll have to go back to Dr Kristov, Kristu Kristov, that’s who he is, if you go back and look in Who’s Who in science(4.26) in the 1950’s you’ll see Dr Kristu Kristoff?? His name appears rather prominently. He’s the man that came up with NUDETs, the nuclear detection system, he was in charge of, he was paperclip 1, and his son George is the one that I was in business with. He and I, you know when we’re trying to sell this ionisation process and other things that we were trying to do. But err , we were going down to Los Angeles, I didn’t know that Karagulla was there I didn’t have any idea who she was at the time. And he said ‘There’s somebody I want you to talk to’ and I said ‘What for?’
‘Say you have a little of the paranormal I know that’. This is George talking.
‘You’re pretty good at it, I can tell. I want her to test you’
And I says’ Nutty idea, but sure’ and so Dr Karagulla tested me. And it turned out the test is like any of these blind test that they do to determine your paranormal abilities, they’re just based on probabilities.
MJ: Predictive reasoning?
DF: Yes no actually, the way they set it up or the way she set it up. I don’t know if all of them are done that way but this is the way this one was done. Two different rooms and sitting down, here’s the question and the correct answer is any one of 4 answers. That would actually fit it in some way, but you think about the correct answer, and you transmit that to her. (6.18) And the probabilities are based on the answer to it will match one of those four that she’s got so just 25% blind, just picking anyone of them, and ran that on about a hundred questions, and I was a little over 60% accurate on that. And then they switch it to exactly…. no (6.47) she was 60% accurate when I was transmitting the answers, the other way round but the spread on it… and I was transmitting, I transmitted to her close to 90% accuracy.
MJ: So when did you get involved in the alien program? (7.10) Or what you describe it as…
DF: Well I can get into the meat of that anyway that’s where I came across Dr Karagulla and then I had that she gave me a book which was ‘The Paranormal , Secrets of the Paranormal from behind the Iron Curtain’. (This is likely to be the book http://www.amazon.co.uk/Psychic-Disc.../dp/0137320817 not his title which I’m pretty sure doesn’t exist , especially as this is the book which is mention here in relation to UCLA http://www.ghosttheory.com/2012/07/1...psychology-lab apparently a Dr Moss who worked there became obsessed with Kirlian photography after reading it. Dr Karagulla did however write ‘Through the Curtain’ apparently an esoteric masterpiece. Really weird that I managed to find a copy of ‘Psychic Discoveries’ today in a local secondhand book shop, it mentions Karagulla, and from that we find the book DF was really talking about) She had just published it to be used to in her class, not only a classroom requirement but it was in the libraries all over the damn thing.
MJ: That implies that there was a major exchange program going on Soviets and the US?
DF: No.. no, no, no, they were in direct competition that the point, I mean the Cold War was going on and the Russians definitely didn’t want that book out anywhere, cause they didn’t want the Americans know essentially want they were doing(8.00) Eventually Dr Karagulla was killed on the UCLA campus.
MJ: Assassinated?
DF: Yeah, and there’s no question she was hit by a car going 70mph on the UCLA campus, hit and run gone. And I thought I still that copy of the book for some reason I didn’t, I had a kid stole a damn car and ran it into my garage, my garage caught fire and I book and a whole lot of stuff computer and a whole lot of stuff…
MJ: What there any motive there?
DF: No I think that was an pure accident. But what I’m saying is I needed that book for reference so I figured I’d just call the library and get one. And no-one had a single one in the state of Arizona, no anyone in Nevada, so I said I’d call the Library of Congress – not one in the Library of Congress. I’ll call the Psychology Department at UCLA and they said ‘ Well yes she used to be the Head of Paranormal Department I’m sure we have her book’, you know, because it was required reading for everyone in her class.
MJ: There must be loads of copies surely…
DF: Not one exists anywhere, try me try me on that one because I researched that big time. I can’t find one anywhere not even in Europe.
MJ: This is a bit like Ingo Swann book ‘Penetration’ it’s completely gone.
(Interestingly Swann meet Karagulla and learnt a lot from her. http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pa...StoryCh40.html)
DF: Yeah that maybe .. but this is the only one I’ve been after… looking for the book…
MJ: When you were successfully tested right?
DF: Very successfully tested
MJ: So when did they make use of you as a subject?
DF: They have never put me to work doing that and they never have and I don’t wanna.

[Longeyes]

UFO Congress Backroom Interview 4: Dick French Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B5dpDL1f_Q

DF (Dick French): Wait a minute I’m not sure where you’re going with this?
MJ(Miles Johnson): You said some things about ETs and said something about ….
DF: There are so many, so many instances where in studying the ETs, and I’ve been very interested in that for a long time, and so many of those tell the same basic story; of the time loss bingo, the fact the person appeared in the room they were frozen, they just sat there they didn’t do anything, all of those, so many things match that’s exactly what you can do (0.54) by mind control. Now a person that has the capability, to just basically, lock you out, right then, block your mind totally. You couldn’t function. You couldn’t do anything. You can go on breathing, but that’s about all. And so yah it possibly a way that… Now as to the abductions…(1.21)
MJ: So that doesn’t necessarily mean that you they’d have to have alien abductions, you could have military abductions then?
DF: Well I don’t, I really don’t think that we’re doing it. But…
MJ: But it means that a human being could freeze someone’s mind out?
DF: Oh yes, absolutely, in my opinion yes.
MJ: If they are skilled or they have it as a natural attribute that they are not aware of…
DF: Yeah, What kinda goes together are people who are… have extremely strong transmitters, like I was an extremely strong transmitter, and invariably they are very powerful speakers and they can basically, ever been a classic example, be able to totally mesmerise a crowd, make them do things they normally nobody’d ever dream of doing. You look at those old movies, like the show ‘The Night of the Knives ‘ (I think he is referring to ‘The Night of the Long Knives’ when Hitler eliminated his opposition before WWII http://www.documentaryflick.com/nazi...f-long-knives/)
The earlier years the earlier you start programming a child the more effective it will be over the long run, as Goebbels said, and he’s right he says, ‘Give me a child for 6 years, and I’ll have him for the rest of his life.’
MJ: So were there programs involving giving children particular abilities to deal with, to be used like that?
DF: You mean did the Nazis do it – yes. Did we do it? Not to my knowledge.
MJ: Is that what you meant when you mentioned ‘Paperclip’ earlier?
DF: No,’ Paperclip’ is the code name for it, but what came with him and the other people who came over, they all came with specific specialties of so kind or they wouldn’t have been on the Paperclip list.
MJ: Of course. Was there an application for that? Was there… Why were you selected or look at?
DF: In many cases do you want to hear a funny story in that regard?(3.21)
MJ: Yeah sure.
DF: When I said maybe earlier to you. I thought I’d mentioned it. I got rather deeply into the way prisoners of war were interrogated, and if I get into details of that, I’m really getting way deep into the black, and I don’t want to do that.
MJ: Yep
DF: Cause that’s a hot subject right now. What with Abu Ghraib…
MJ: What again, brought you to the UFO Conference? ( 3.49) What brings you to the UFO conference? Is it a connection with UFOs?
DF: No
MJ: …apart from Blue Book …
DF: You see I’m in the process of writing this book, I’m pretty nearly done. I can follow most of this ‘cause I monitor half a dozen, you know, …websites that keep me pretty well up to speed. Then I was watching Coast to Coast and listening to it. First time a couple of months ago and they started advertising this conference and they said, ‘It was going to be the biggest history ‘and all of this, and all these people, and I thought ‘I’ll go to that one.’ Because if I show up here I sure as hell, out of some of these lectures, I’ve gotta pick up a bunch, from somebody that’s something. I was looking for stuff that is new- simple.(4.44)
MJ: Such as Russell Targ?
DF: Well, It’s not totally new. But now, he was talking about things I did not know about the field. You understand me?
MJ:Yes
DF: I was familiar with the process; how it was done; how they were trained, I already knew that. They started to…
MJ: Based on the time… you’re talking 40yrs ago is that right? Or maybe 50yrs ago when you were dealing with that?
DF: Still nodding (laughs) (5.12)
MJ: That’s involvement that must imply that there on-going development….
DF: I have an interest in many subjects, now I really do, that’s all I can say, and that was something that interested me, that that could be done, that that would work. What I’m saying is, it was commonly felt … let me tell ya, for instance, and friend of mine called Bob Bocken???(8.59), he was flying a C-130 across Pacific, inbound to Narita which is now Tokyo international airport, and they were something like 1,200 miles off the coast of Japan and right under the wing comes this big UFO. (laughs) And it sits there a little while, and goes across to the over here, and sits here( DF crosses his arms ie the wing) for a little while, and they can see people in…
MJ: There’s this activity you can actually see into the UFO? (6.15)
DF: You can see people in the window. I mean alien types but you can see them in the window.
MJ: So they were sufficiently close and clear that you could…
DF: Oh yeah they were up within; say less than 600ft away. You know just sitting there off the wing. And they did that, and he got on the radio, of course, as soon as he could, you know how single- sideband radio works?(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-sideband_modulation NB. SAC made SSB standard for aircraft in 1957. And 374 Aircraft Wing is based in Japan flies c-130s however I can find no mention of a Bob Bocken???.)
MJ: Cross carrier?
DF: Yeah, so he was still 800-900 miles off the coast of Japan, heading into Tokyo to this thing is still with them, it’s sometimes it get 10miles away, and then it would get back over, just dicking around with them. It was a cargo flight, I forget what he had on it, he had 6-8 passengers on it.(7.11) It was deadheading back to the Pacific deadheading assignments they’d been on leave or something. And everybody saw it. And 800miles off the coast of Japan he called in on single sideband. And he says ‘I’ve got this UFO tracking me, and can you get it on radar?’ And they said ‘Well no, we don’t have it yet, we don’t have you on radar yet.’
MJ: That quite a distance away..
DF: But, the thing stayed right there the get to about 400miles of Japan and then they picked him up on radar. The second they picked him up on radar the thing went… (Hand-action indicates UFO pulling away) They obviously, they must have known they were being painted or they you know (7.57), they were anyway, prior to that they’d had lights on, you know lights in the windows, and guys you can see and all that..
MJ: Inside the UFO?
DF: Inside the UFO.
MJ: As soon as they were picked up the lights went off?
DF: Yeah, and they were shhhuuu… (Gesticulates shooting off) Gone! (Laughs)
MJ: What size was this thing?
DF: It was a cigar shape, and about, he estimated about 500ft long, which is little bit smaller than generally you hear about in the reports, yeah.
MJ: So 500ft’s a small one?
DF: Yeah it’s smaller the big ones usually are the big cigar shaped are normally usually twice that long.
MJ: About a 1000ft?
DF: Yeah, somewhere in that area.

[Longeyes]

Lee Speigel did a nice piece on Dick French's contribution to the CHD. Video links at the original site...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3240437.html

Richard French, Ex-Air Force Lt. Colonel, 'It Was A UFO And . . . There Were Aliens Aboard It'


When Air Force Lt. Col. Richard French was an alleged lead investigator of Project Blue Book in the 1950s, his job was to shoot down false reports of UFOs.

Given his job, French never dreamed he'd end up in Newfoundland one day watching what appeared to him to be two extraterrestrials performing repairs on a submerged, unknown circular craft.

In Washington, D.C., recently, the 83-year-old retired officer testified at the Citizen Hearing On Disclosure panel of six former members of Congress about his work as a UFO debunker in 1952.

French recounted how the Newfoundland incident unfolded decades ago, in the early 1950s, after two UFOs were seen by many people off the coast of St. John's. French's superiors ordered him to look into the situation.

"They said, 'We have a UFO report and we want you to investigate it,' and that was standard for what I was doing," French told The Huffington Post. "They told me there were two of them involved and that they were deep under the water, after entering the water doing roughly 100 miles an hour.

"There were a lot of people assembled on the wharf, at least 100 standing around just looking in amazement at the water, including several local policemen."

Watch Ret. Air Force Lt. Col. Richard French at the Citizen Hearing On Disclosure:

French recalls the water was very clear and he could see two circular craft, each one about 18 feet in diameter and approximately 3 feet thick. He said the two objects were floating below the surface of the water, a couple of feet apart, not more than 20 feet from the shore. And he saw two beings in the water near the ships.

"The first thing I saw was the UFOs, and it was apparent to me that they were doing something to the craft, and I couldn't really tell what because they were on the bottom side of it and not visible to me except when they would occasionally get over to the side where I could see them. The water was fairly clear and I could see without any trouble. They weren't down at the bottom of the [seabed] -- they were about half way down."

French told HuffPost that the two beings he saw "were about 2 or 3 feet tall, light grey in color, very thin, long arms with either two or three fingers. The top of their heads was much wider than their jaw line, their eyes were very slanted and you couldn't see pupils in them. They looked the way [aliens] have been depicted in motion pictures."

As the Air Force UFO debunker watched, he claims one of the ships began to rise out of the water.

"When it hit the [surface], it was going about 100 miles an hour. It then accelerated to somewhere in the neighborhood of 2,500 to 3,000 miles an hour and disappeared. It returned about 20 minutes later, slowed down to nearly a stop before it entered the water, then went down, and the two [beings] worked together.

"It took them about 20 minutes and then the two ships departed together, again slow when they exited the water, and immediately they sped up to a very high speed. I believe they were repairing [the ship] and tested that the repairs had been adequate, and then away they went."

Watch French talk about his job as an Air Force UFO debunker:

Ironically, French's job at the time -- as a Project Blue Book investigator -- was to debunk UFOs. So, what kind of report did he file with Blue Book about this case he had personally witnessed?

"Needless to say, it was a fictitious report, as all of them were. I didn't really say that they were UFOs -- I said that there was something we didn't know -- some type of foreign or unrecognizable vehicle there. In other words, I weasel-worded it.

"Oh, I think without a doubt it was a UFO and I think there were aliens aboard it. There's no question in my mind that was exactly what it was, and my duty was to debunk the story, so I did my best to do so."

The events of the Newfoundland UFO and alleged aliens took place some 60 years ago, in the days before everyone had a digital camera or image-capture cell phone in their pocket. Despite the fact that there are no photographs to substantiate the report, it's still an amazing story.

So what are we to make of this? Because it's not the first time French has stirred up the UFO-ET pot.

Last year, he told HuffPost exclusively that there wasn't just one UFO crash near Roswell, N.M., in 1947 -- he said there were two.

[Longeyes]

This interview must have been made during the Citizens Hearing on Disclosure it was done by new realities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7JeIFUQVXk

USAF Colonel Richard French on the Reality of UFOs

Published on May 5, 2013

Exclusive http://www.NewRealities.com interview with Colonel Richard French, at the Citizen Hearings on UFO Disclosure. French was on the staff of USAF Project Blue Book, a government sponsored study on the validity of UFOs. He says that his primary job on that committee was to make up logical explanations (debunk) what people saw when they reported a UFO sighting.


Lieutenant Colonel French served 29 in United States Air Force and was first called to active duty with the Air Force Office of Special Investigations (OSI) in 1952. Before entering military service he earned a position on the U. S. Olympic Team as a freestyle wrestler. He was a bit distraught when his OSI Commander refused to release him during the war time to attend the final national Olympic qualification tournament in Sue City, IA. He volunteered for pilot training in 1954 in the Korean war. He was assigned to the 25th Squadron and flew the wing of Naval Exchange Officer John Glen, who went on to become the nation's first man in space.

French graduated from Oregon State and continued his education with two PhDs in Philosophy and Astrophysics from the Kings College online education system.


He at least tries to push him on the dates but they don't real seem to add up and at the end comes up with a personal sighting which Ithink undermines his credibility, his stories are at least consistent but how long did he serve with the OSI 1951-1972???
Who knows?!?