Vegetarianism and the New Age

[lycaeus]

I've been mostly vegan for about 7 years. Except I've been off and on with eating a lot of fish, going months without it and then months with it, usually salmon or a fish oil supplement like Skate Fish Liver Oil. A lot of New Age stuff talks about vegetarianism making you more spiritual, clean and healthy. I guess that makes sense, to clean out excess dead animals from your body. Maybe do the occasional cleanse once in a while but I don't know if it's good to be completely vegetarian. Dairy I can live fine without (gladly) but it must be the specific oils in the fish as well as the protein that I keep going back for. The amount of vegetables and supplements you need to consume to get the nutrition of some fish for dinner is ridiculous. I don't want to gorge on animals, but I'll sacrifice some fish for my health. The cult mentality of veganism/vegetarianism is extreme and you're thought of like a madman for eating some meat or even fish. Well I think there's something that some, maybe most of the people at this forum could agree upon: that us humans probably have some reptilian DNA in us from past interbreeding. So maybe a little meat is necessary for us, but not so for monkeys (which vegans always compare humans to). I'm starting to think the whole vegetarian thing promoted by the New Age is to get people more weak-minded, less-grounded, mentally cloudy and floaty. Because you do really feel lighter as vegetarian but I think we need that protein energy, and especially the specific animal fats for a healthy brain and to give us that drive. I was just thinking this might be a tactic used against us to use guilt to make us a bit weaker and more compliant from changing to a vegetarian diet. Maybe some sort of agenda?

[CasperParks]

I've been mostly vegan for about 7 years. Except I've been off and on with eating a lot of fish, going months without it and then months with it, usually salmon or a fish oil supplement like Skate Fish Liver Oil. A lot of New Age stuff talks about vegetarianism making you more spiritual, clean and healthy. I guess that makes sense, to clean out excess dead animals from your body. Maybe do the occasional cleanse once in a while but I don't know if it's good to be completely vegetarian. Dairy I can live fine without (gladly) but it must be the specific oils in the fish as well as the protein that I keep going back for. The amount of vegetables and supplements you need to consume to get the nutrition of some fish for dinner is ridiculous. I don't want to gorge on animals, but I'll sacrifice some fish for my health. The cult mentality of veganism/vegetarianism is extreme and you're thought of like a madman for eating some meat or even fish. Well I think there's something that some, maybe most of the people at this forum could agree upon: that us humans probably have some reptilian DNA in us from past interbreeding. So maybe a little meat is necessary for us, but not so for monkeys (which vegans always compare humans to). I'm starting to think the whole vegetarian thing promoted by the New Age is to get people more weak-minded, less-grounded, mentally cloudy and floaty. Because you do really feel lighter as vegetarian but I think we need that protein energy, and especially the specific animal fats for a healthy brain and to give us that drive. I was just thinking this might be a tactic used against us to use guilt to make us a bit weaker and more compliant from changing to a vegetarian diet. Maybe some sort of agenda?

Lycaeus,

I understand what you are saying.

People should not tie Vegetarianism and New Age together. Vegetarianism has been around for thousands of years. Many Seventh Day Adventists are vegan. Some ancient religions from the Far East lean toward vegan style diets. If done properly is considered a healthy diet.

Heard a couple of times that, "A vegetarian can smell a meat eater. Meat eaters omit a certain body odor." Does anyone know if that is true?

[lycaeus]

It's definitely a healthy diet. But you hear a lot of stories of raw foodists who always go back to some animal products after a few years it's pretty common. There are vegan bodybuilders and hardcore athletes like UFC fighter Mac Danzig who only eats raw fruits and vegetables (80 10 10 diet). Unless you got the money for high quality, organic plant foods it's hard to get the nutrition you need. I think the main thing is EPA and DHA you need especially for a strong brain. If you're a vegetarian that's not good at converting ALA into DHA/EPA then your mind might get a little soft and 'airy' I think. Then there's the argument that protein is good for focus and a strong will...and not many people do well on beans, so vegetarians have to eat a ton of vegetables which is difficult, or eat foods with more fat like nuts and seeds, where too much can fat make you sluggish. So lean clean proteins are good but hard to come by, especially with most meat being so contaminated. It might be better to eat a high quality protein supplement and fish oil or algae supplement for EPA and DHA. Vegetarianism's healthy but if you don't know what you're doing or get the supplements you may need it might make you kind of weak and passive, like fluoride.

When I was 'all raw' I would notice everyone's body odour it was kind of funny. People's breaths were the most obvious and a huge turn off or me. I thought that bacon and butter cooking smelt like vomit, pretty gross. On that diet I was hyper sensitive to everything, light, sound, people, smells and stress.

[lycaeus]

Reminds me of this clip. It starts at 6:15 haha: http://www.cartoon-world.tv/the-simpsons-season-9-episode-13/

[kleemkrishnaya]

I was vegetarian my whole life, until I took the final step & became vegan 3 years ago. One will always regress if one is doing it for selfish reasons, such as one's own health, it seems. I refuse utterly to be part of a conspiracy of violence & silence; I know that not many will "hear" these words, & I am not the best one to say them. . . but I will not be racist, speceisist, exploitist in any way, & will not be lulled into complacency by any arguments for "my health". First, they can be proven to be wrong - & second, if it could be proved to me that by living vegan I was to 10 years of my life, I would not change. It is not a mater of diet, but of conscience. Please refer to Professor Gary Francione who puts it all so much better than I can.

[lycaeus]

I definitely think that veganism is ideal ethically. What's been confusing me is how much my health would improve when I added fish to my diet even though I'd rather not eat fish. It might not be the protein that's necessary, I'm thinking it's the fats that your brain needs. The best sources of those would be the algae supplements. It's been years since I consumed that but I plan on trying it again...even though it's a bit expensive.

[norenrad]

Saying veganism is "ethical" and "less selfish" isolates others that do not participate in its practices and causes tension.

Casper commented that he had heard that vegetarians can small "meat-eaters". I immediately thought of how meat-eaters know a vegetarian by their complexion; mostly yellowish in hue. A friend of mine knows a few vegetarians and he mentioned that two of the couples he knows had lost their babies shortly after childbirth, this revelation came after a news story about a vegan couple had lost their baby in Boulder, Colorado.

I believe that all foods should be taken in moderation. It is never healthy to commit to only one food group. The following article tells us how delicate the human condition is and how nutrients affect our bodies.

Death by Veganism

"WHEN Crown Shakur died of starvation, he was 6 weeks old and weighed 3.5 pounds. His vegan parents, who fed him mainly soy milk and apple juice, were convicted in Atlanta recently of murder, involuntary manslaughter and cruelty."

"I was once a vegan. But well before I became pregnant, I concluded that a vegan pregnancy was irresponsible. You cannot create and nourish a robust baby merely on foods from plants."
"The fact remains, though, that humans prefer animal proteins and fats to cereals and tubers, because they contain all the essential amino acids needed for life in the right ratio. This is not true of plant proteins, which are inferior in quantity and quality — even soy."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/opinion/21planck.html?_r=0

[lycaeus]

You really gotta know nutritionally, what you're doing if you're a vegan. You can't just substitute soy for meat. Some of the most healthy people are vegetarian but many don't do it properly and some people don't handle it as well. A lot of the time the most practical (or easy) thing to do is use supplements. I've been doing it for years but the last couple years found myself gorging at sushi buffets many times. At this point I have no desire for any meat or milk other than fish, which is apparently good for my blood type. Chicken repulses me but I like fish. Really not sure about it. I've had issues being 'grounded' mentally, but physically my health's been awesome. I wonder if a good supplement like Vega and an EPA/DHA supplement will help. If not, then I might just be a 'pescetarian' in spite of the bad fish quality. By the way, I don't know if it was the meat I smelled from people or just general BO. If you eat all raw your senses are heightened and you feel like you're a floating spiritual elf like being.

[lycaeus]

I am no longer a vegetarian and I don't believe it is the ideal lifestyle for everyone except for a minority with the proper physiology for it. Also, Vegetarianism plays a part in the New Age Movement which is a part of a big conspiracy in my opinion. The dogma that it is ideal and healthy for everyone is plain dangerous because many don't do well on this diet. It weakens many people's minds and health, and in some cases, it's like a religion or a cult (imo).

I got into veganism for the right reasons: a sincere compassion for animals; a desire to discourage suffering and cruelty; and a desire for better health based on logical and plausible information promoted by the vegan community.

I stubbornly continued veganism for the wrong reasons: purely egotistical attachment to the paradigm; personal, victimized frustrations projected through the vegan paradigm; ignorance/denial regarding my mental/physical health; and a desire to feel superior / 'more spiritual'.

And I'm giving up the vegan lifestyle for the right reasons: for good mental/physical health; swallowing my pride and moving beyond my deep-rooted ego; moving beyond past limiting belief systems; more time and energy to to do what I love (less time eating/shopping); and for common sense practicality. I feel good about it.

Veganism is good for a cleanse and detox' but is not a healthy long-term lifestyle for many, especially not for me. Fish and eggs did more for my health than any popular supplements. Lack of nutrition, like protein from animal products on a strict vegan and raw diet, made me weak, anxious, foggy, tired, depressed and apathetic.

I feel much better now introducing animal products after years of self-sacrifice and struggle maintaining what I thought was a morally superior lifestyle. The improvements were instant and impossible to ignore. I felt guilty when I went back to fish, back and forth for years, but my body needed it. I don't feel guilty at all now. Eggs are great now too and I plan on trying some grass-fed (not factory farmed) meats like beef and poultry again, eventually. Dairy - I'm still not sure about though. But it's too obvious that I need that kind of protein. I've tried so many different ways of doing vegetarianism and they wouldn't work for me.

There are also flaws in vegan thinking. For example, apple orchard farmers shoot many deer. They even put giant fish hooks in the apples so the deer hang by their mouths until they die or get shot. Tractors also kill many animals. You can't live without indirectly harming other life in some way. Respectable hunters live a very ecologically supportive life because their source of food is not dependent on massive agriculture. Most of the grain/soy agriculture is for animal feed as far as I understand. Agriculture destroys forests and the natural ecosystem.

I think vegetarianism has a strong connection with the new age movement. That ties in with the 'worship of Gaia' and the new world order. Because I think the NWO is about people sacrificing themselves for the greater good of the collective and the ecology of the planet. Like being carbon-taxed up the wazoo and religious concepts such as we shouldn't eat meat.

And I think since I'm an abductee I might've been 'encouraged' to support some programmed beliefs like environmentalism, 'space brothers' and vegetarianism. Maybe they're connected? Many abductees experiences involve imperative concepts like how we're destroying the planet and need to treat the natural wildlife and animals better to be more 'spiritual' and evolve. So vegetarianism might be a pattern with abductees maybe.

But in the end, if it works for you, that's awesome. If not, that's okay, just don't feel guilt-tripped or limited by dogma. Many emotionally shaky and victimized people identify with the factory farmed animals and adopt this lifestyle (like myself) and use the concepts as an outlet for their personal problems (not everyone though).

But still, I hope everyone makes an effort to support more humane farming practices. Factory farming truly is a horror. If you can, buy grass-fed (pastured), organic and humanely certified animal products. It's better for your health anyways. (Even 'organic-free-range eggs can legally involve beak-cutting mutilation :'() I think the connection of cancer and meat consumption has more to do with the chemical treatment of the meat products such as cancer-causing sodium nitrite added to the foods. There are also many benefits to cholesterol actually too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft_SqZuvhME

http://letthemeatmeat.com/

[lycaeus]

Forgot to add the point that natural health shouldn't involve so many plastic bottles of supplements as is often the case with vegetarian diets. I also started to get thinning hair at the age of 19. What's that all about? Protein and zinc deficiency maybe? hmm..

[montalk]

Forgot to add the point that natural health shouldn't involve so many plastic bottles of supplements as is often the case with vegetarian diets.

Agreed -- it's complicated, time consuming, and/or expensive to be vegan for a long time without developing deficiencies. Especially if you want to avoid soy. I get annoyed when someone who is pale, sickly, tired, and spacey tells me to eat vegan like them because it's healthy (obviously they're not doing it right, or it's not the right thing for them).

You can do rice/pea protein and various supplements but it gets expensive. You're trying to feed the body a diet it wasn't engineered for and have to contort what you consume to make up for that. There's a lot of mis/disinformation in the vegan/vegetarian literature, like how cows and gorillas do fine eating grass and therefore we can get all our protein from vegetables. Yeah right, we lack the second stomachs and/or huge colons that break down cellulose into useable protein, so that doesn't fly.

But as you said, it varies by physiology. I noticed that the most successful vegans/vegetarians tend to be green/blue/hazel eyed people with some blood type other than O. Supposedly they are later evolutions (or engineered products) better designed to handle domesticated grains and such.

About supplements, I found that unlike mainstream (even junk food) diet, an all-natural whole food diet even with meat can lead to certain deficiencies because they're not fortified. Foods today are not grown in soils as micro-nutrient rich as they were a century ago, so getting by on a whole foods diet is harder than it was. The parts normally taken out through processing still aren't as rich in some vitamins and minerals as the fortification powder added to it. Compare the nutrition label of an organic cereal vs cheerios for instance, organic rice versus some mainstream fortified rice.

So in the quest to keep yourself free of toxins, you risk becoming deficient if you don't do it right. Thus you'd have to eat enough and strive for enough variety in your diet. Sometimes people screw up with the simple things like not getting enough fat, which can lead to cardiovascular issues, auto-immune diseases, and hormonal deficiencies.

Ethically I'm against eating meat, but biologically I'm all for it. For what it's worth, I find that pinto beans can stand in for about 50% of animal proteins without harmful effects. Maybe next life I'll be born as an alien that can live off silica jello cubes, but for now I'm in a body that requires real nutrients. If you save a cow by not eating it, but then spend your life as a space cadet who can't think and work hard enough to make a positive difference in the world, then wouldn't that be unethical to throw away a bigger good for the sake of a pettier one? So for me it's about net positive impact.


I also started to get thinning hair at the age of 19. What's that all about? Protein and zinc deficiency maybe? hmm..

If it's not genetics or dietary deficiency, then check your salt and sugar/dairy intake (I know you said you don't do dairy much). Especially the salt. Soups, canned food, chips, processed or preserved meats, cheese, bread, and fast food are pretty salty. I don't know how it does it, but it makes hair fall out if you're overloaded with salt. Maybe it clogs up and suffocates the follicles, I don't know. As for the sugar/dairy that can exacerbate candida or other yeast/bacteria that attack hair follicles.

[lycaeus]

Those are all good points that I agree with. I'm all for a decent, well-rounded supplement like Vega maybe a few times a week. That plus a balanced diet with some fortified foods would be optimal. The soils really do suck. Legalize hemp!!! It's so good for so many things, for one, it enriches and strengthens soils. Sometimes they use sewer sludge as fertilizer. I'll try the pinto beans and see how they do. Most beans don't sit well though so it should be fun, I went years without salt, getting all calories from fruit, nuts and seeds. That's when the hair started thinning and I craved salmon, so started trying that. I even got saw palmetto and that didn't help like they say it should. I knew salt contributes to balding. But after years of salt-free, I gave up and just ate it. But - I didn't know about sugar. I consumed thousands of calories of fruit sugars a day. Sugar is sugar for the most part, whether in fruits or refined, too much is too much. I feel good though now, the past week or so just giving in to my meat cravings (no dairy). I feel fine without the GABA I took for anxiety. My strength, energy, sex drive, confidence and focus have somehow increased a lot. It feels great walking away from such a guilting, restrictive lifestyle.