FBI Records 'Guy Hottel', UFO's & Radar

[AdverseCamber]

<snip>

And, no, I am not, my knowledge is speculative but informed: it is based on the long history of UFO reports and a good understanding of physics , and having seen several craft I know that they are out there, I'm only trying to understand what I've seen.

So applying the same logic what about all of the unknowns that have been spotted on radar?

If there was a radar return then the microwaves hit the object and scattered, why didn’t these UFOs fail?

Operation Charlie instantly springs to mind as this occurred in 1947 when the UK’s east coast radar defences were triggered several times by mysterious intrusions. RAF interceptors were launched and picked up the UFOs on airborne radar too, but that was as close as they ever got.

Why didn’t those UFOs suffer from what could be considered a multiple radar ‘attack’?

[majicbar]

So applying the same logic what about all of the unknowns that have been spotted on radar?

If there was a radar return then the microwaves hit the object and scattered, why didn’t these UFOs fail?

Operation Charlie instantly springs to mind as this occurred in 1947 when the UK’s east coast radar defences were triggered several times by mysterious intrusions. RAF interceptors were launched and picked up the UFOs on airborne radar too, but that was as close as they ever got.

Why didn’t those UFOs suffer from what could be considered a multiple radar ‘attack’?

Not all UFOs originate from the same planet, many planets have sent UFOs to Earth. Not all UFOs use a microwave flight system, more advanced UFOs would have access to more advanced technologies and base flight systems on any number of physical phenomena. I've never said all UFOs use this principle, only some. After the debacle of the 1947 crashes they would have tried to correct this fault of the microwave system and by the mid 50's the falling leaf effect largely disappears form UFO reports, which to my mind indicates the problem was fixed. Again, without full access to the USAF reports it would be hard to fully understand what facts really apply here.

[AdverseCamber]

Not all UFOs originate from the same planet, many planets have sent UFOs to Earth. Not all UFOs use a microwave flight system, more advanced UFOs would have access to more advanced technologies and base flight systems on any number of physical phenomena. I've never said all UFOs use this principle, only some. After the debacle of the 1947 crashes they would have tried to correct this fault of the microwave system and by the mid 50's the falling leaf effect largely disappears form UFO reports, which to my mind indicates the problem was fixed. Again, without full access to the USAF reports it would be hard to fully understand what facts really apply here.

Fair enough, but it’s no different to me saying you’re wrong as they only come from one planet. Or that they crashed because they hit a moth, speculation presented as fact isn’t really my thing though…

[lux aurea in obscuro]

good morning,

I see before me a most fruitful debate having raised excellent points, I especially like the mention of cosmic microwave radiation. In fact I was once under the assumption that these cosmic fields of energy could have powered propulsion systems.

"Not all UFO's originate from the same planet, many planets have sent UFO's to Earth". Majicbar if your able to elaborate further that would be ace?

I now wonder as in our current timeline of technical innovation will we again in future develop technology what again could have an negative effect on UFO's. I see major advancement in military hardware... All this talk of UFO's being effected by radar has me wondering about USO's possibly being effected by sonar, could that account for craft reportedly diving into the sea?

I will now search for any reported incidents of USO's being caught on sonar, as I have never seen one and find that hard to believe.

Kind regards.

[majicbar]

"Not all UFOs originate from the same planet, many planets have sent UFOs to Earth". Majicbar if your able to elaborate further.."

Evidence of such is from reported observations of close encounters of the forth kind and reports of abductees on alien types. It is unlikely that more than one species would emerge as the dominant one on any one planet, thus it is likely that for each main type of alien there is one planet involved. I would place this at seven, or more, although the use of droids might pare that back to around five, or more. The different types of UFOs can't be taken as they may have evolved over time and one alien race might be using more than one type, and some UFOs might be motherships for the other types, but again this would tend to say many planets as origins of the UFOs.


Your sonar inquiry, this is the most prominent:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shag_Harbour_UFO_incident

While the official story of the incident ends here, further evidence
attributed to various military and civilian witnesses might imply a
highly secretive military search involving a small flotilla of Royal
Canadian Navy and United States Navy ships about 50 km (31 mi)
northeast of Shag Harbour near Shelburne (see map above), site of HMCS
Shelburne, a top secret submarine detection base jointly operated by
both navies as part of the Integrated Undersea Surveillance System
(IUSS).

According to one military witness, he was allegedly briefed that the
object had originally been picked up on radar coming out of Siberia.
After crashing in Shag Harbour, it traveled underwater up the coast
and came to rest on top of a submarine magnetic detection grid
reportedly located off Shelburne, where it was supposedly joined by a
second vehicle. Navy ships were allegedly anchored off HMCS
Shelburne's facilities at Government Point for a week, according to
the witnesses, in an attempt to recover the object. [1] A barge was
said to have been brought in from the United States to assist in the
recovery, as reported by another military witness. Regional newspaper
stories did mention a barge with "atomic furnaces" being brought to
the government wharf at Shelburne Harbour on October 6 for emergency
repair, theorized by some as a cover story to explain its presence
there. [2]

One American diver, known only as "Harry" in the book Dark Object by
Styles and Ledger, stated that the object wasn't from planet Earth.
"Harry" claimed photographs were taken by the divers and some
foam-like debris brought up. [3] Another military witness claimed that
there were actually two objects, one perhaps trying to assist the
other. The naval search was suddenly called off on October 11. That
night, a seemingly identical UFO was reported departing the area by
witnesses near the original Shag Harbour crash site.

The most recent History Channel documentary about the incident, which
aired on August 10, 2006, also reported that one of the divers
involved in the Shag Harbour search did come forward during the
mid-1990s, refusing to allow his identity to become known publicly.
Once the researchers verified that the man in fact had served as a
diver during that search, he recounted his version of what had
happened at Shag Harbour.

In this recounting, by the time the divers reached Shag Harbour, they
already knew that nothing would be found there, because the target had
already been located off the coast at Shelburne. He went on to further
say that the Royal Canadian Navy and Royal Canadian Air Force as well
as the United States Air Force and United States Navy monitored the
"unknown objects" by radar and sonar, and that the objects were
underwater. This monitoring continued for at least three days, until a
Soviet Navy submarine was detected entering Canadian waters northeast
of Nova Scotia. With that, the navy ships departed to intercept the
submarine, and by the time they had returned, the "unknown objects"
had evidently departed.

However, unlike the event at Shag Harbour, no official documentation
or confirmation has yet emerged to support witness stories of a second
search near Shelburne. There has been nothing to substantiate the
diver's claims, with the exception of archived records that indicate a
substantial amount of search and monitor activity in the Shelburne
area during that 10 day period.

[murmur]

great stuff

[lux aurea in obscuro]

Good morning,

Once again Majicbar please except my thanks on a rather remarkable reply. Those close encounters of the forth kind gave you the idea we are being visited by a number of different ET's from different worlds. I also share your take on that particular situation and in a way should we be grateful? The film the '4th kind' @ 3:33 in the morning as the officers patrol car films a craft over the home, I can assume those early morning visitors are the type we really don't want to encounter. So we have bad ET's and we have good ET's I only wish I had a better idea of who is on what side.

I had no idea about the Shelburne incident and I find your attached information of much interest I will now go and have a peek. I do however find this of importance in relation to the topic of debate:

"He went on to further say that the Royal Canadian Navy and Royal Canadian Air Force as well as the United States Air Force and United States Navy monitored the "unknown objects" by radar and sonar, and that the objects were underwater."

This indicates to me that the craft/s were tracked by radar until they ditched into the sea around Shag Harbour. I should imagine at this point members will jump all over me demanding the elusive evidence... yet is the fact a "small flotilla" were despatched and on site for a number of day's searching until the Ruskies joined the party not conclusive enough to prove they spotted something on the scopes?

Also that "came to rest on top of a submarine magnetic detection grid" I wonder why it would do that? I better go and have a sniff about.


Kind regards.

[Marvin]

Marvin, thanks for the sources. They have helped me refine my thoughts, but they do not make your point.

My point is... all of the "Gas Giants" give off radio/microwaves. Radio/microwaves have been detected from Mercury and Venus. The energy detected from these sources is logarithmically greater than 1947 radar. That would only leave two planets for the aliens to visit… Earth and Mars. Earth did not work out too well for them… which only leaves Mars as a planet to explore, and we are to believe an advanced race of aliens who transversed light years of space (and have experienced all of these issues and more along the way) came to a solar system and can only safely visit one planet.

You are welcome to your opinion.

[majicbar]

My point is... all of the "Gas Giants" give off radio/microwaves. Radio/microwaves have been detected from Mercury and Venus. The energy detected from these sources is logarithmically greater than 1947 radar. That would only leave two planets for the aliens to visit… Earth and Mars. Earth did not work out too well for them… which only leaves Mars as a planet to explore, and we are to believe an advanced race of aliens who transversed light years of space (and have experienced all of these issues and more along the way) came to a solar system and can only safely visit one planet.

You are welcome to your opinion.

Marvin, you have in my opinion failed to grasp the importance of the microwaves having omnidirectional black-body properties, even when the overall microwave environment is very high on these other planets with atmospheres. The UFO flight system that I talk about here is only needing to affect that atmosphere locally and only to polarize it to the degree necessary to provide the aeromotive force. Again, by the inverse square rule, the local environment of the UFO even when faced with an environment of high heat microwaves only need be effective within 30 meters at the most. Another point is that the sources you sight indicate that at those levels the atmosphere becomes opaque. The UFO therefore once it establishes its local flight environment should no longer be subject to those microwaves and would establish a boundary layer between it's flight envelope and the microwaves of the atmosphere. That is, in my opinion and given a knowledge of aerodynamics.

[Marvin]

Marvin, you have in my opinion failed to grasp the importance of the microwaves having omnidirectional black-body properties...

That explains it, since "omnidirectional black-body properties" are a material property and not a radiant energy (microwave) property.

Have a great one!


M